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  • Convener: Dr. JohnSowa (Vivomind Intelligence)     (1A)
  • Outcome: The "Shared and Integrated Ontologies (SIO)" project is born!     (1D)

On-site Venue: "Employee Lounge" - NIST Building 101 (Main Building) ... (same venue as the OntologySummit2010_Symposium)     (1E)

  • Discussions and Q & A:     (1F5)
    • (Unless the conference host has already muted everyone) Please mute your phone, by pressing "*2" on your phone keypad, when a presentation is in progress. To un-mute, press "*3"     (1F5A)
    • You can type in your questions or comments through the browser based chat session by:     (1F5B)
      • instructions: once you got access to the page, click on the "settings" button, and identify yourself (by modifying the Name field). You can indicate that you want to ask a question verbally by clicking on the "hand" button, and wait for the moderator to call on you; or, type and send your question into the chat window at the bottom of the screen.     (1F5C1)
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    • thanks to the folks, one can now use a jabber/xmpp client (e.g. gtalk) to join this chatroom. Just add the room as a buddy - (in our case here) ... Handy for mobile devices!     (1F5E)
  • Please note that this session will be recorded, and the audio archive is expected to be made available as open content to our community membership and the public at-large under our prevailing open IPR policy.     (1F9)

Attendees     (1H)

Agenda & Proceedings     (1I)

  • Session Format and Agenda:     (1I1)
    • this will be virtual session over a phone conference setting, augmented by shared computer screen support     (1I1A)
    1. The session will start with a brief (10 sec.) self-introduction of the attendees [We will be skipping this if there are more than 20 participants.]     (1I2A)
    2. Presentation by John F. Sowa (~45 min.)     (1I2B)
    3. Q&A and Open discussion (~30 min.) [Kindly identify yourself before speaking.]     (1I2C)

Topic: "Sharing and Integrating Ontologies"     (1J)

Two or more application programs that interoperate successfully on common data must be based, explicitly or implicitly, on some agreement about the meaning of that data. Internally, those applications may use very different syntax, and some of their processing may depend on information that is not described in the common agreements. For example, a personnel database and a medical database may share information about the names, addresses, and Social Security numbers of many of the same people. But the business-related details in the personnel DB and the case histories in the medical DB would not be shared. In general, interoperability requires precise documentation of the syntax, semantics, and pragmatics of all the interactions among interoperable systems. Formal ontologies are metadata about the things, events, properties, people, and information involved in the design, implementation, and use of those systems.     (1J2)
This report evolved from an email discussion in Ontolog Forum starting in February, 2010. Since many of the ideas were introduced, elaborated, and modified by multiple participants, it��s impossible to credit any particular individual for any specific point. Instead, all participants in the thread with the subject line Foundation Ontology, Cyc, and Mapping should be acknowledged as contributors. Some related discussions, also starting in February, took place on the email list of the Architecture Ecosystem SIG of the Object Management Group, which also influenced the ideas presented in this report. Other publications and presentations are cited in the body of the report and collected in the bibliography at the end.     (1J3)

Transcript of the online chat during the session     (1J4)

see raw transcript here.     (1J4A)

(for better clarity, the version below is a re-organized and lightly edited chat-transcript.)     (1J4B)

Participants are welcome to make light edits to their own contributions as they see fit.     (1J4C)

Welcome to the Ontolog Post Summit Symposium Meeting     (1J4E)

- Sharing and Integrating Ontologies - Tue 2010.03.16     (1J4F)

Please refer to details on the session page     (1J4I)

anonymous morphed into Matt Hettinger     (1J4L)

anonymous morphed into Doug Foxvog     (1J4M)

Mike Bennett: Could some ask that questione be repeated please, I can't hear them at all     (1J4N)

Simon Spero: Undetached ontology parts     (1J4P)

Peter P. Yim: my apologies about the mess with the chat-room links     (1J4Q)

Mike Bennett: I was beginning to wonder if I was in the wrong room - thanks Peter!     (1J4R)

Mike Bennett: Re the last question (things which exist by virtue of being specified): one way in     (1J4S)

which meaning is grounded in the business world is in legal systems.     (1J4T)

Amanda Vizedom: The point on the current slide (titled "Consistency Check") is important. IME, most     (1J4V)

folks developing ontologies to handle examples and/or instance-level data resist explicit     (1J4W)

representation of instance-level examples, thereby losing this resource for testing...     (1J4X)

Amanda Vizedom: I'm referring specifically to projects in which the ontologies are used for semantic     (1J4Y)

metadata, for example, and the bulk of data remain in RDBs or other data sources. Here, there is     (1J4Z)

principled reason to keep the instances out of the ontology being developed ...     (1J4AA)

Mike Bennett: @Amanda this is a very good point. One thing I hope to see developed later in this     (1J4AB)

conversation is the distinction between projects where the instance data is RDF/OWL individuals and     (1J4AC)

projects where the instance data is database instance data. So many issues require different     (1J4AD)

treatment in the two scenarios IMHO     (1J4AE)

Amanda Vizedom: However, there is good reason to ontologize the examples (some sample data, some     (1J4AF)

sample messages, some sample service payloads). It's fine to do it in a distinct ontology, for     (1J4AG)

example, using import or inheritance mechanisms to make the ontology under development usable within     (1J4AH)

the example ontology. Now you've got something to do some meaningful testing on.     (1J4AI)

Simon Spero: We're getting deep in to Quineland here; I'd settle for non-monotonicity.     (1J4AJ)

Doug Foxvog: @Amanda Sample data can be placed in a model that uses a theory. Multiple models can use     (1J4AK)

the same theory, with the only difference being the instance data.     (1J4AL)

Doug Foxvog: It is a good idea to keep instance data out of theory ontolgies, imho.     (1J4AM)

Doug Foxvog: Some instances can be useful in theories. E.g., the Earth in a geographical theory, or a     (1J4AN)

legal code for a theory about how law applies to certain aspects of society.     (1J4AO)

Mike Bennett: @Doug there will always be a need for certain instances in most class-level ontologies     (1J4AP)

(e.g. the USA, ISO etc.), but that's distinct from the sample data question, which I agree is an     (1J4AQ)

important one     (1J4AR)

Amanda Vizedom: @Mike Yes, I agree. In fact, this relates to our previous discussion of training     (1J4AS)

suitability to project. Much SemWeb-oriented training tends to assume that the instance data is     (1J4AT)

RDF/OWL, and to teach specific approaches (some elements of which we've discussed in last 2 days,     (1J4AU)

e.g. DL, no 2nd-order classes, no properties relating classes (as opposed to their instances),     (1J4AV)

Mike Bennett: @Amanda - yes, to many sem-webbers the OWL/RDF web /is/ the uiverse of semantics.     (1J4AX)

People need to hear what John's saying about databases. All new, trendy movements assume a green     (1J4AY)

field site; the rest of us have to work with real world problems.     (1J4AZ)

Simon Spero: The original web 0.9 took off because it integrated with all the data that was already     (1J4AAA)

out there on the net     (1J4AAB)

Simon Spero: It was a few years before http overtook gopher by traffic volume     (1J4AAC)

Simon Spero: @Amanda, @Mike: the big problem with teaching OWL to people who know OOP is that     (1J4AAD)

suddenly there's only monotonic inheritance     (1J4AAE)

Amanda Vizedom: @Mike However, many interoperability-driven projects, including mine and I think     (1J4AAF)

yours, do not fit this. Rather, there are legacy data sources, not to be converted any time soon, if     (1J4AAG)

ever, and the ontology is providing the explicit semantics absent from those sources (via markup or     (1J4AAH)

indexing or wrapped services or...). For very good reasons, the sample data shouldn't be in these     (1J4AAI)

ontologies. But we miss a much needed means of machine- or machine-assisted validation by not also,     (1J4AAJ)

separately, ontologizing some instance level data to serve as a test bed.     (1J4AAK)

Simon Spero: @Mike, @amanda: the link I posted earlier is to a W3 workshop on mapping from RDF to     (1J4AAL)

Mike Bennett: @Amanda - indeed so. Some of the bright young things in financial services want to "do"     (1J4AAN)

trendy SemWeb stuff, but most of them have real problems to solve. Since there's no merit in having     (1J4AAO)

instance data in two places, it only makes sense for the ontology to be a business conceptual model     (1J4AAP)

within a model driven stack of artefacts. But the test question is an interesting one, thanks for     (1J4AAQ)

flagging that up.     (1J4AAR)

Simon Spero: @myself - and RDBMS -> RDF     (1J4AAS)

Mike Bennett: @Simon interesting link, it might help with some of the places where users of our     (1J4AAT)

ontology are looking at ways to use it in solving real data problems.     (1J4AAU)

Simon Spero: Mike: Best way to convince people that they don't want a jumbo triple store is to let     (1J4AAV)

them build one     (1J4AAW)

Simon Spero: Nothing like a giga-tuple table to slap some sense into the resistant     (1J4AAX)

Mike Bennett: @Simon re monotonic inheritance that explains why one sees ontologies with a single     (1J4AAY)

hierarchy. I think there are interesting data mapping issues that require multiple inheritance in     (1J4AAZ)

the ontology mapping to distinct single inheritance data models across the organization or supply     (1J4AAAA)

Simon Spero: @Mike: multi is ok, but people want to override, because that's what they do when     (1J4AAAC)

programming     (1J4AAAD)

Amanda Vizedom: ...By doing so, we not only enable the kind of single-ontology checking John     (1J4AAAE)

described, but loads of potential additional testing, including testing of the implications of     (1J4AAAF)

particular alignments of ontologies, when such are needed for federated search, for example. Test     (1J4AAAG)

those alignments over test beds of ontologized instance-level examples that stand in for the     (1J4AAAH)

heterogeneous sources you aim to make interoperable.     (1J4AAAI)

anonymous morphed into Ali Hashemi     (1J4AAAJ)

Simon Spero: Word & Object says we can't     (1J4AAAK)

Ali Hashemi: Sorry for being super late, was in a meeting till now...     (1J4AAAL)

Mike Bennett: We're on Slide 10 (the 3D 4D question as an example of different theories)     (1J4AAAM)

Mike Bennett: This makes a lot of sense. I think in 4D anyway and was completely blindsided by the     (1J4AAAO)

fact that there are 3D theorists with their own peculiar definitions for continuants and the like.     (1J4AAAP)

Mike Bennett: It should be possible to frame a definition for "Continuant" which corresponds to what     (1J4AAAR)

John calls the Interface view - what it actually is, rather than how a 3D or 4D geek defines it     (1J4AAAS)

Simon Spero: Are there individual rabbits, or are there just disconnected chunks of the unique Rabbit     (1J4AAAT)

Ali Hashemi: One comment about Slide 7 -- the lattice need not be a tree. There can be more than one     (1J4AAAU)

parent, and more than one root for any applied snippet of the "lattice of theories"     (1J4AAAV)

Ali Hashemi: I suppose the emphasized word is _like_ a tree     (1J4AAAW)

Mike Bennett: That's re the questioner suggesting that these theorists come up with some real axioms     (1J4AAAY)

for their stuff     (1J4AAAZ)

Doug Foxvog: "Connected" in 3D and 4D have different definitions. The axioms do not conflict unless     (1J4AAAAA)

they are using terms with inconsistant meanings.     (1J4AAAAB)

Doug Foxvog: Equating in 3D and 4D also have different meanings.     (1J4AAAAC)

Mike Bennett: Surely once we look at real axioms, one workaround that drops right out of real world     (1J4AAAAD)

data is that there is a thing which exists over a period of time (howsoever modeled), and that thing     (1J4AAAAE)

has a number of states and transitions between those states (again, howsoever modeled).     (1J4AAAAF)

Doug Foxvog: @Mike: what is considered to be a "thing" is a mental definition.     (1J4AAAAG)

Mike Bennett: @Doug surely the theorists aren't getting hung up on words just because some words may     (1J4AAAAH)

have different meanings?     (1J4AAAAI)

Simon Spero: Can we sum this up as saying hooray for empiricism?     (1J4AAAAK)

Simon Spero: If there words could have two meanings, there would have been a sign on the dooor.     (1J4AAAAL)

Mike Bennett: @Simon: Philosophy Department (or is it?)     (1J4AAAAM)

Simon Spero: Enterprise architecture is basically enterprise archaeology     (1J4AAAAN)

Simon Spero: Or forensic para-consistent epistemology : What the f*ck were they thinking?     (1J4AAAAO)

Simon Spero: BTW, DICOM has 11 values for sex:     (1J4AAAAP)

Simon Spero: Medical imaging quantised gender theory, because it had to     (1J4AAAAR)

Amanda Vizedom: IMHO, it would be of significant value were some research ontologists (i.e., those     (1J4AAAAS)

for whom doing what follows would count as fulfilling the expectations of their positions, vs. those     (1J4AAAAT)

for whom applied projects dominate) would pony-up with those axioms and proofs. Here's why: groups     (1J4AAAAU)

of applied ontologists sometimes get into interminable debates, running years at times, over which     (1J4AAAAV)

of two logically equivalent high-level representation approaches to use. In absence of agreement,     (1J4AAAAW)

they also end up using each sometimes. Some will argue for equivalence and the practical importance     (1J4AAAAX)

of picking one and moving on, but without the proof, this is rarely persuasive.     (1J4AAAAY)

Mike Bennett: @Amanda re our earlier (my email is down just now): Another twitter response has     (1J4AAAAZ)

@MikeHypercube methinks: "..Ontologies play a vital role in the broad Semantic Web Project vision,     (1J4AAAAAA)

the burgeoning Web of Linked Data .."     (1J4AAAAAB)

Mike Bennett: @Simon in fact the world's first "non gender" person was declared in Aus in the last     (1J4AAAAAD)

couple of days. Cue database confusion.     (1J4AAAAAE)

Simon Spero: Mike: Gender != Sex     (1J4AAAAAF)

Mike Bennett: :Simon The #tag for Linked Data is #linkeddata if that's what you're asking (apologies     (1J4AAAAAG)

Doug Foxvog: "We have reality" -- that's a theory. We have an "interface" to what we consider to be     (1J4AAAAAJ)

Doug Foxvog: Hopefully, there is some sort of agreement as to what "reality" is.     (1J4AAAAAL)

Amanda Vizedom: I could make a list ... but I won't. [Note re: Summit topic -- this would be nice to     (1J4AAAAAM)

cover in teaching as well: recognizing logically equivalent, or probably logically equivalent,     (1J4AAAAAN)

modeling approaches, and making choices -- either pragmatically or arbitrarily!     (1J4AAAAAO)

Mike Bennett: I think that there is a real case for a repository that identifies industry-led     (1J4AAAAAP)

standards (at a semantic level, where such exist), so that one can start to integrate the lattice of     (1J4AAAAAQ)

actual, owned theories that are out threre.     (1J4AAAAAR)

Mike Bennett: With provenance metadata     (1J4AAAAAS)

Simon Spero: There's a workshop on ontology repositories at eswc in corfu this year     (1J4AAAAAV)

Peter P. Yim: The "Shared and Integrated Ontologies (SIO)" project is born!     (1J4AAAAAW)

Peter P. Yim: HUGE Thanks to *John* and All     (1J4AAAAAY)

Peter P. Yim: -- session ended 5:30pm --     (1J4AAAAAZ)

-- end of chat session --     (1J4AAAAAAA)

Audio Recording of this Session     (1K)

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