Ontolog Forum

UoM_Ontology_Standard draft deliverable preview session - Thu 22-Oct-2009

This is a preparation session for our upcoming 30-October-2009 workshop. We expect to preview the draft deliverables that the various champions have put together so far, surface specific issues that may be hampering the drafting work, and do some preliminary alignment, in preparation for a more in-depth discussion during the 30-Oct-2009 full-day workshop.

  • Session Chair: Dr. FrankOlken (NSF) & Mr. EdwardBarkmeyer (NIST)


Conference Call Details

  • Date: Thursday, 22-October-2009
  • Start Time: 10:30am PDT / 1:30pm EDT / 7:30pm CEST / 6:30pm BST / 17:30 UTC
  • Expected Call Duration: ~2.5 hours
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Agenda & Proceedings


1. Opening by session Chair -- Frank Olken / Ed Barkmeyer

2. Briefings from deliverable champions -- Ed Barkmeyer, Rob Raskin / Chip Masters, Pat Hayes, Howard Mason, Joel Bender / Peter P. Yim

3. Q & A and Open Discussion (All) -- please refer to process above

4. Action Items and Conclusion -- Frank Olken / Ed Barkmeyer


Please refer to the archives above

IM Chat Transcript captured during the session

Frank Olken: I expect we will use the same teleconferencing facilities as

usual on Oct. 30. Our audio tech will call into the teleconference

Peter P. Yim: great, ... thanks, Frank

Peter P. Yim: Howard: note: maintenance agency ... registration authority

Frank Olken: I think we want a maintenance agency (which has

discretionary authority to approve new derived units).

Frank Olken: I think the maintenance agency should be something like


Pat Hayes: 1. Should we have a quantity model? Seems to be a majority

agreeing that this is needed. 2. Explicit named units and Q. kinds? We

can't do them all, how many will we do and what do we do about the

others? Eg how do we relate to the UCM list? [Peter: maintenance issue

arises when normative standard is formal. Who adds items to

namespace/base?][Ed: yes, needs an authority or tool which can handle

this. Not impossible and needs to be done. Certainly a scope

issue.][Frank: exist 2 things. Extensions which are derived units,

should be automatic. But also, new named units like 'watts'.] <<much

discussion about mechanisms for administration and registration, etc..

ISO and OASIS both have various mechanisms...>>

Pat Hayes: Should have said, I was scribing Ed's speech above.

Peter P. Yim: thanks, Pat

Pat Hayes: Ed: quantity kinds more promiscuous than units. Do we needs

  • kinds* of quantity kinds? Need to choose a level to stop publishing,

this is unbounded in extent.

Joel Bender: Is 'scale' a 'derived unit'?"

Pat Hayes: Ed: scales. Email discussions went nowhere. Do we have scales

as part of the ontology? Unit conversions also an issue (4 so far).

Other issues further out: uncertainty, tolerance. But these are v.

complicated to do 'propoerly'. Do we need to handle these at all, if

only crudely? Chips (eg) does, but its about measurement. Do we want to

go this way?

Pat Hayes: Joel: I don't think so.

Pat Hayes: Ed: measurement is big area, need to bring other organizations

in if we go there, eg UK NPL. Probably can't do it all, but also not

completely omit.

Pat Hayes: Howard: need to consider target market for our ontology, to

focus discussion. XXphilosophy..

Pat Hayes: Ed: priorities. We need to have a time limit, so some things

are prunable. Final point: microtheories: not all extensions are

mutually compatible, possibly. Up to us to provde guidelines for this


Peter P. Yim: Ed Barkmeyer: OMG QUDV

Steve Ray: Sorry, had to run to another meeting...

Peter P. Yim: Ed will make an attempt to invite the QUDV leads,

Roger Burkhart (John Deere) & Nicolas Rouquette JPL) to join us on Oct-30

Ed Barkmeyer: Scope: assume quantity, quantity kind, SI named units,

scales, conversion are in, measurement and uncertainty, specification

and tolerance are less clear, it depends on our target audience and use,

available expertise and time.

Ed Barkmeyer: Big issue is extension: how to deal with the infinite list

of quantity kinds and the very large list of derived units.

Ed Barkmeyer: Pat: UML may be all that many will understand, OWL will be

definitive for the Sem Web folk, CLIF is really the hard form for people

committed to axiomatic definition and FOL reasoners.

Ed Barkmeyer: Pat: there are other reasons to use CLIF -- it allows

simpler consistent formulations of some complex notions

Ed Barkmeyer: Frank and Pat discussed concerns about the arithmetic, use

of functions like sine or square root. Pat: we want to stay away from

floating point and arithmetic error.

Ed Barkmeyer: The OWL folk have defined the datatype to be xsd:double,

i.e., IEEE 754 numbers.

Ed Barkmeyer: Pat: we want to assume mathematically exact numbers and

avoid computational issues. Yes, actual uses may have some problems if

the values and computations exercise the fringes of the computational

behaviors. (Ed: the common problem is just that decimal fractions (the

heart of metric) don't have exact binary renditions.)

Peter P. Yim: Howard: sending our draft TC charter to Jamie and inviting him

to do a 5 min. OASIS-101

Peter P. Yim: @Howard - please consider the proposal of "QUoM" (as an

alternative to "QUOMOS")

Peter P. Yim: Joel: workplan slides -

Pat Hayes: I also have to leave for another call. Peter, email me if you

have any, er, tickets for me.

Joel Bender:

Joel Bender: thank you

Peter P. Yim: ref. getting buy-in from the standard bearers (e.g. BIPM) -

Steve & Howard making advances on those fronts; Ed feels we will be more

ready when we have a draft standard; Pat suggest using the now popular

notion of "Linked Data" to position ourselves

Peter P. Yim: great meeting, thanks, everyone

-- session ended: 2009.10.22-12:27pm PDT --

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