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Ontology Summit 2012: Session-11 - Thu 2012-03-22     (1)

Summit Theme: OntologySummit2012: "Ontology for Big Systems"     (1A)

Track (1&2) Title: Ontology for Big Systems & Systems Engineering     (1B)

Track Co-champions: Dr. MatthewWest and Dr. HensonGraves     (1C)

Session Topic: Big Systems: The ontology of System Components, and System Modelling Language Requirements     (1D)

Session Chair: Dr. MatthewWest ... intro-slides     (1E)

Panel Briefings from:     (1F)

  • Dr. NicolaGuarino (IAOA; ISTC-CNR LOA, Italy) - "Functional roles and their realizations" - slides     (1G)
  • Mr. ChrisPartridge (BORO Solutions, UK) - " 'System Components' as a litmus test for your ontological architecture " - slides     (1H)
  • Mr. DavidLeal (CAESAR Systems, UK), presented by Dr. MatthewWest (Information Junction, UK) - "Some thoughts on requirements for languages in engineering" - slides     (1I)
  • Dr. HensonGraves (Algos Associates, US) - "Using Ontology to Meet Big Systems Challenges" - slides     (1J)

  • Date: Thursday, 22-Mar-2012     (1K7A)
  • Start Time: 9:30am PDT / 12:30pm EDT / 5:30pm CET / 16:30 UTC     (1K7B)
  • Expected Call Duration: ~2.0 hours     (1K7C)
  • Attention! ... Please pay special attention to the start-time of this session for your own location. Timing for these couple of weeks is fairly tricky (especially for non-US participants) - as North America has gone into daylight saving time, Europe hasn't, and a lot of Asian countries don't do daylight saving at all!     (1K7D)
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Attendees     (1L)

Abstract     (1M)

Big Systems: The ontology of System Components, and System Modelling Language Requirements     (1M1)

This is our 7th Ontology Summit, a joint initiative by NIST, Ontolog, NCOR, NCBO, IAOA & NCO_NITRD with the support of our co-sponsors. The theme adopted for this Ontology Summit is: "Ontology for Big Systems." The event today is our 11th virtual session.     (1M2)

The principal goal of the summit is to bring together and foster collaboration between the ontology community, systems community, and stakeholders of some of "big systems." Together, the summit participants will exchange ideas on how ontological analysis and ontology engineering might make a difference, when applied in these "big systems." We will aim towards producing a series of recommendations describing how ontologies can create an impact; as well as providing illustrations where these techniques have been, or could be, applied in domains such as bioinformatics, electronic health records, intelligence, the smart electrical grid, manufacturing and supply chains, earth and environmental, e-science, cyberphysical systems and e-government. As is traditional with the Ontology Summit series, the results will be captured in the form of a communiqu��, with expanded supporting material provided on the web.     (1M3)

This "Ontology for Big Systems & Systems Engineering" Track aims to bring key challenges to light with large-scale systems and systems of systems for ontology and identify where solutions exist, where the problems require significant research, and where we can work towards solutions as part of this summit. The areas to be considered include:     (1M4)

  • working with and integrating the results of models using multiple modeling languages,     (1M5)
  • the systems lifecycle and the issues of sharing data within and between lifecycle stages,     (1M6)
  • the difference between requirements and the delivered system,     (1M7)
  • systems of systems vs systems,     (1M8)
  • the nature of system components and the difference between these and the parts installed,     (1M9)
  • the connections between system components and what they carry,     (1M10)
  • the specific role of social, legal, and value-related aspects in systems architecture, modeling and design     (1M11)
  • systems behaviour,     (1M12)
  • federated systems both as a big system, and as a solution to some of the challenges,     (1M13)
  • principles of how to construct good quality reusable models (ontologies),     (1M14)
  • the management of ontologies of and for large systems and the challenges in developing and maintaining them.     (1M15)

Rather than trying to continue the exploration of issues and develop new territories, we shall make a synthesis on what has transpired in the discourse around the issues covered by tracks 1 & 2. In this session, we will focus on two topical areas in particular:     (1M16)

  • 1. have a discussion on system components ... and,     (1M17)
  • 2. have a discussion on the requirements for engineering modelling languages, and the shortcomings of what is available.     (1M18)

More details about this Summit at: OntologySummit2012 (home page for the summit)     (1M19)

Agenda     (1N)

Ontology Summit 2012 - Panel Session-11     (1N1)

  • Session Format: this is a virtual session conducted over an augmented conference call     (1N2)

Proceedings     (1O)

Please refer to the above     (1O1)

IM Chat Transcript captured during the session    (1O2)

see raw transcript here.     (1O2A)

(for better clarity, the version below is a re-organized and lightly edited chat-transcript.)     (1O2B)

Participants are welcome to make light edits to their own contributions as they see fit.     (1O2C)

-- begin in-session chat-transcript --     (1O2D)

Ontology Summit 2012: Session-11 - Thu 2012-03-22     (1O2F)

Summit Theme: Ontology Summit 2012: "Ontology for Big Systems"     (1O2G)

Track (1&2) Title: Ontology for Big Systems & Systems Engineering     (1O2H)

Track Co-champions: Dr. Matthew West and Dr. Henson Graves     (1O2I)

Session Topic: Big Systems: The ontology of System Components, and System Modelling Language Requirements     (1O2J)

Session Chair: Dr. Matthew West     (1O2K)

Panel Briefings:     (1O2L)

  • Dr. Nicola Guarino (IAOA; ISTC-CNR LOA, Italy) - "Functional roles and their realizations"     (1O2M)

- "Some thoughts on requirements for languages in engineering"     (1O2P)

Mute control: *7 to un-mute ... *6 to mute     (1O2S)

Can't find Skype Dial pad? ... it's under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad"     (1O2T)

Proceedings:     (1O2U)

anonymous morphed into MatthewKHettinger     (1O2V)

anonymous morphed into Rex Brooks     (1O2W)

Henson Graves: @johnbilmanis - do you remember me     (1O2X)

anonymous1 morphed into Tom Tinsley     (1O2Y)

anonymous morphed into Chris Partridge     (1O2AA)

anonymous morphed into Anatoly Levenchuk     (1O2AB)

anonymous1 morphed into Elizabeth Florescu     (1O2AC)

anonymous morphed into Henry (IBM)     (1O2AD)

Peter P. Yim: ERRATA: (first line above) session should be: = Ontology Summit 2012: Session-11 - Thu     (1O2AE)

2012-03-22 =     (1O2AF)

Peter P. Yim: == Matthew West introducing the session ...     (1O2AG)

Peter P. Yim: == Nicola Guarino presenting ...     (1O2AH)

anonymous morphed into Doug Foxvog     (1O2AI)

Peter P. Yim: @Henry (IBM) - would you click on "settings" and morph into your real name, please?     (1O2AJ)

Henry (IBM) morphed into Henry Broodney     (1O2AL)

Peter P. Yim: @HenryBroodney - many thanks, ... Welcome     (1O2AM)

Henry Broodney: @PeterYim Thank you     (1O2AN)

Simon Spero: @Nicola: I have problems with these examples (and some from the paper)     (1O2AO)

Simon Spero: @Nicola: Some are at most one '?' in my idiolect     (1O2AP)

Simon Spero: @Nicola: After the Jello incident, Sandy was replaced as Kim's BFF     (1O2AQ)

Simon Spero: @Nicola: (From paper) << I have a good neighbour">> . Not just acceptable, but     (1O2AS)

idiomatic.     (1O2AT)

Doug Foxvog: For X being a role, "s/he is a good X" means that s/he performs expected types of     (1O2AU)

actions someone playing that role "should" do relative to the subject. friend(A,B) obligates B in     (1O2AV)

relation to A, while classmate(A,B) obligates B relative to A far less. That is why "B is a good     (1O2AW)

classmate of A" is marked '*'.     (1O2AX)

Amanda Vizedom: Simon: What paper are you referring to? I don't see a reference in the slides; did I     (1O2AY)

Steve Ray: Hmm, it seems to me that you can replace both a classmate and a teacher...     (1O2AAA)

Jack Ring: Seems to me these are examples of the general case of stating a coordinate system then the     (1O2AAB)

location of the item in the system.     (1O2AAC)

Jack Ring: e.g. is right headlamp the 'not left' or the     (1O2AAD)

Jack Ring: "correct" headlamp?     (1O2AAE)

Doug Foxvog: @Steve: A teacher can replace your classmate, but i fail to see how you can do so in a     (1O2AAG)

standard class situation.     (1O2AAH)

Jeffrey Wallk: I tend to think about a role as a set of functional activities framed by a position in     (1O2AAI)

an organization and the context with which the role is operating rather than a defined set of     (1O2AAJ)

"rules". Perhaps a discussion for later..     (1O2AAK)

Simon Spero: Amanda Vizedom: A link was sent to a draft on dropbox     (1O2AAL)

Jack Ring: @ Matthew. In this example "not left" is pretty obvious but my point illustrates the     (1O2AAM)

uncertainty of any specific term.     (1O2AAN)

Nicola Guarino: A revised version (BUT STILL UNPUBLISHED!) or my paper is here     (1O2AAP)

Simon Spero: @Nicola: Thanks     (1O2AAR)

Doug Foxvog: Are not the object part and the object in the same place at the same time?     (1O2AAT)

Simon Spero: Is the Clay the statue?     (1O2AAU)

Nicola Guarino: @Chris: When I meet the President, the legal person and the physical person are in     (1O2AAV)

front of me at the same time in the same location     (1O2AAW)

anonymous morphed into Pavithra Kenjige     (1O2AAX)

Jack Ring: Replacement is ambiguous. Replacement may indicate similarity to tyre removed whereas     (1O2AAY)

perhaps the original was summer and the second one a winter tyre.     (1O2AAZ)

anonymous morphed into FOUGHALI     (1O2AAAA)

Terry Longstreth: Slide 9 is a great graphic     (1O2AAAB)

Simon Spero: Deflationary approaches to tyres can be problematic     (1O2AAAC)

Jack Ring: Is Rosen / Kineman relational algebra not useful here?     (1O2AAAD)

Nicola Guarino: @Jack: replacement is always relative to a function (or an expected behaviour). As     (1O2AAAE)

long as a generic behavior for the car is expected, you can replace a winter tyre with a summer     (1O2AAAF)

tyre. The role "car tyre" allows such replacement, but of course the role "winter tyre" doesn't     (1O2AAAG)

Simon Spero: Unicorns are Pegasi     (1O2AAAH)

Doug Foxvog: What's wrong with multiple kinds of parthood? Parthood at one time does not imply     (1O2AAAI)

parthood of a 4D worm, or vice-versa.     (1O2AAAJ)

MatthewKHettinger: @Jeffrey IMO a role is a collection of *expected* functional activities .....     (1O2AAAK)

e.g. see DougFoxvog. Rules may be considered to be part of the context by which expectations may be     (1O2AAAL)

defined. The network of roles may form the the basis for an architecture of a system of interest     (1O2AAAM)

e.g. enterprise, federation. As you say, perhaps a discussion for later.     (1O2AAAN)

Jeffrey Wallk: @MatthewKHettinger: Agreed...look forward to it     (1O2AAAO)

Doug Foxvog: @Simon: It depends on the context. In the context of various conceptual works, it is     (1O2AAAP)

false that Unicorns are Pegasi. (assuming the existence of Pegasi) -- i thought that "Pegasus" was     (1O2AAAQ)

the name of an individual, not the name of a class.     (1O2AAAR)

anonymous morphed into RafaelPena     (1O2AAAS)

GaryBergCross: It certainly seems that the conceptualization that Nicola spoke about earlier is very     (1O2AAAT)

relevant to how parts are discussed as part of an abstract pattern that is a car.     (1O2AAAU)

David Flater: Intentionally speaking, having wings is a necessary condition for being a Pegasus (or     (1O2AAAV)

the Pegasus). Unicorns don't qualify. However, two classes with empty extents are equivalent in the     (1O2AAAW)

extensional sense.     (1O2AAAX)

Doug Foxvog: What about the automobile of Theseus? At what point as parts are replaced do we still     (1O2AAAY)

have the same automobile? Can an automobile have its chassis replaced?     (1O2AAAZ)

Peter P. Yim: == Matthew West, presenting DavidLeal's material ...     (1O2AAAAA)

Jack Ring: @Nicola - Re: DavidLeal's Slide 16 it seems that the designer must be aware of the degree     (1O2AAAAB)

of specificity that may be presumed by the observer.     (1O2AAAAC)

Steve Ray: Actually, isn't it Matthew West playing the role of David Leal?     (1O2AAAAD)

GaryBergCross: Isn't Matthew REPLACING David ? It's not a change....except his voice is different...     (1O2AAAAE)

Doug Foxvog: @David, Simon: it depends on "X are Y" means. Is it merely, "Every instance of X is an     (1O2AAAAF)

instance of Y"? The truth of such a statement is context dependent. If it means "Any instance of X     (1O2AAAAG)

is necessarily an instance of Y", then David is correct.     (1O2AAAAH)

anonymous morphed into PercySalas     (1O2AAAAI)

Nicola Guarino: @Matthew (and David): in slide 4, the three cases at the bottom (excluding part     (1O2AAAAJ)

types) can be represented using Dolce's qualities without the need of classes of classes     (1O2AAAAK)

Simon Spero: Doug Foxvog: Right - the inten_s_ional stance if you will     (1O2AAAAL)

Nicola Guarino: @Matthew: I would model ownership as a (static) event which has its starting and     (1O2AAAAM)

ending time, and so on... This gives us much more flexibility t     (1O2AAAAN)

Jeffrey Wallk: Do we need to think about an object (part if you will) having a location ? Or, can we     (1O2AAAAO)

think about it's relationship to other things ... location is typically relegated to positioning     (1O2AAAAP)

within 2 or 3 dimensional perspectives. So, what if i step back and consider an idea (rather than a     (1O2AAAAQ)

part) ....where would I "position" this in a business model (or more tactically within a product     (1O2AAAAR)

Doug Foxvog: @Jeffrey: We can define spatial and aspatial objects as well as temporal and atemporal     (1O2AAAAT)

objects. An agreement/account/song would be aspatial and temporal. A Platonic solid would be spatial     (1O2AAAAU)

and atemporal.     (1O2AAAAV)

Simon Spero: @Doug: But in 4-D, aspatial things becomes complicated. What is the difference between a     (1O2AAAAW)

point (at time t) whose location is not known, and a fictional character (in the real world) at time     (1O2AAAAX)

t - for example, Sherlock Holmes, who came in to existence (given intenten_t_ional stance) when     (1O2AAAAY)

conceived of by Sir Arthur     (1O2AAAAZ)

Simon Spero: @Doug: Cyc approach is better     (1O2AAAAAA)

Nicola Guarino: ...this implies introducing thematic roles: Fred is the *experiencer* of an ownership     (1O2AAAAAB)

event, whose *theme* is Fido     (1O2AAAAAC)

Nicola Guarino: @Matthew: I strongly agree on the importance to have variable in a representation     (1O2AAAAAE)

formalism. This is in my opinion one of the biggest problem of current description logics.     (1O2AAAAAF)

Matthew West: @Nicola: Yes, I noticed that too. David was just a bit sloppy there.     (1O2AAAAAG)

Matthew West: @Nicola: Yes I agree again that variables are important for serious work.     (1O2AAAAAH)

Doug Foxvog: @Simon: Cyc uses the concept of a "FictionalContext". From its comment, "In general, a FictionalContext is assumed to include many assertions that are widely believed to be false or questionable. Such assertions might or might not be about actually-existing things. For example, the fictional context associated with the Sherlock Holmes stories contains assertions about London as well as assertions about Holmes. "     (1O2AAAAAI)

Doug Foxvog: Cyc also has "[[FictionalWorksMt]] to provide facts about fictional works. It's comment states ""This microtheory contains true facts about all fictional Mts, e.g. Dracula-TheNovel, [[TheSimpsonsMt]]. This Mt includes information about the type of fictional work, the characters (see character[[InCW]]), and other information. author[[OfLiteraryWork]]-CW assertions should be made in [[LiteraryPeopleDataMt]]. Information presented in a fictional work should be asserted in the PIT associated with that work (see [[ContextOfPCWFn]]) or in #$[[FactsInFictionalWorksMt]]."     (1O2AAAAAJ)

Doug Foxvog: Statements about characters as characters are true in a different context than     (1O2AAAAAK)

statements about the characters in the context in which they are real -- the context of the works in     (1O2AAAAAL)

which they are presented.     (1O2AAAAAM)

Simon Spero: @Doug: Right - but the creation of the character "Sherlock Holmes" is a fact in     (1O2AAAAAN)

consensual reality, and real thoughts can be "about" that character     (1O2AAAAAO)

Doug Foxvog: @Simon: What is the problem with expressing statements about "Sherlock Holmes" in a     (1O2AAAAAQ)

"real-world" context? In a 1999 context,     (1O2AAAAAR)

Doug Foxvog: various things can be said about the character. More statements are true now, since     (1O2AAAAAS)

movies using the character have been produced.     (1O2AAAAAT)

Simon Spero: Doug: It's a 4D problem     (1O2AAAAAU)

Doug Foxvog: @Simon: I'm not sure that lack of knowledge of the future should be considered a PROBLEM     (1O2AAAAAV)

Jack Ring: Re: Henson slide 3: The main root cause is that the model did not project system behavior,     (1O2AAAAAX)

e.g., what the system is supposed to do, not just what it is.     (1O2AAAAAY)

Jeffrey Wallk: This presentation is thoroughly resonating ...thank you. Henson, are you available for     (1O2AAAAAZ)

an offline discussion ??     (1O2AAAAAAA)

Jeffrey Wallk: Henson please feel free to reach me at jeffrey.wallk [at]     (1O2AAAAAAC)

Jack Ring: No examples for enthusiasm, tenacity, etc. for modeling human activity systems. Warfield     (1O2AAAAAAE)

warned years ago that as the problematic situation becomes large enough then the designers become     (1O2AAAAAAF)

THE problem. We cannot deal with Big Systems without coping with the Human Activity System modeling     (1O2AAAAAAG)

Rex Brooks: There was a group in OASIS several years ago that made an attempt to model human-specific     (1O2AAAAAAK)

information in a Humanmarkup Language, but it didn't get enough participation to carry it beyond     (1O2AAAAAAL)

some very basic modeling of physical characteristics and a bare beginning for psychological or     (1O2AAAAAAM)

sociological characteristics.     (1O2AAAAAAN)

Rex Brooks: So those problems that Jack noted remain unmodeled.     (1O2AAAAAAO)

MatthewKHettinger: @Rex those problems are not as yet completely modeled, especially in a coherent     (1O2AAAAAAP)

Rex Brooks: In DoDAF and MoDAF there is another set of characteristics being modeled as "Human Views"     (1O2AAAAAAR)

for analyzing or putting values to various characteristics relating to competencies and     (1O2AAAAAAS)

capabilities.     (1O2AAAAAAT)

Doug Foxvog: (genls Enthusiasm Excitement) (genls ([[MediumToVeryHighAmountFn]] Enthusiasm)([[PositiveAmountFn]] Excitement)) Cyc has done some modeling for Enthusiasm, etc. OpenCyc     (1O2AAAAAAV)

has no rules, so i'm not sure how well this is ontologized. I would not be surprised if there are     (1O2AAAAAAW)

not many statements about such terms -- probably because no one has funded such work.     (1O2AAAAAAX)

Rex Brooks: The DoDAF folks are aimed at "Performance" abilities.     (1O2AAAAAAY)

Doug Foxvog: Cyc's list of emotions are: Abhorrence Admiration Adulation Affection Ambivalence Amusement-Feeling Anger Anguish Anticipation-Feeling Approval Awe Belligerence Boredom Calmness Celebratory-Emotion Charm Cheerfulness Companionship-Feeling Concern Confidence Confusion-Generic Contempt Contentment Courageousness-Feeling Curiosity Cuteness-EmotionalResponse Defeatedness-Feeling Delight Depression-Feeling Desire Despair Diffidence Disappointment Disapproval Disgust Dislike Displeasure Disrespect Dissatisfaction Distress Doubt Dread Eagerness Elation Embarrassment EmotionalColdness Empathy Enjoyment Entertained-Emotion Enthusiasm Envy Excitement Fear [[FeelingOfCompetence]] Flippancy Freedom-Emotion Friendliness Frustration Gloominess GoodWill Gratitude Grief Guilt Happiness Hate Hope Hostility Humility Impatience Indecision Indifference Ingratitude Initiative Innocence Insecurity Inspiration-Emotion Interest-Feeling Irony Irritation Jealousy Like Listlessness Loneliness Love Love-Romantic Loyalty Lust Machismo-Pride Misery Mistrust Modesty Nationalism Nervousness Nostalgia Offendedness-Feeling Panic Passion Patience Patriotism Pensiveness Piety Pity Pleasure-Feeling Pride [[PrideOfAccomplishment]] [[PrideOfMembership]] Rage Rebelliousness-Feeling Regret Relaxation Relief-Feeling Remorse Reproach Resentment Reservation-Feeling Resolution-Emotion Respect Restlessness Reverence Sadness Satisfaction Security-Emotion SelfConfidence SexualArousal SexualGratification Shame Shock Solemnity Solitude SpiritualElitism Stress-Feeling Surprise Suspense Sympathy Touched-Feeling TrappedFeeling Triumph Uncertainty Uneasiness Unhappiness Vanity Willingness Wonder-Admiration     (1O2AAAAAAZ)

Rex Brooks: In OASIS we stayed with the emotions that the human facial muscles can, often     (1O2AAAAAAAA)

unconsciously, express and then gave them a range of values to indicate how strongly the emotion was     (1O2AAAAAAAB)

expressed or could be expressed. Even that quickly eclipsed the ability to compute combinations of     (1O2AAAAAAAC)

those basic emotions.     (1O2AAAAAAAD)

Jack Ring: The state of the design is not known to managers because no one included a task for     (1O2AAAAAAAE)

"knowing system design viability" c.f., Steve Krane, INCOSE, who does it every day.     (1O2AAAAAAAF)

Peter P. Yim: (to capture a verbal exchange ... ref. audio recording) - is modal logic a prerequisite     (1O2AAAAAAAG)

when we need to include people into our systems model?     (1O2AAAAAAAH)

Peter P. Yim: -- session ended: 11:23am PDT --     (1O2AAAAAAAJ)

-- end of in-session chat-transcript --     (1O2AAAAAAAK)

  • Further Question & Remarks - please post them to the [ ontology-summit ] listserv     (1O2AAAAAAAL)
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    • if you are already subscribed, post to <ontology-summit [at]>     (1O2AAAAAAAL2)
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Audio Recording of this Session     (1P)

Additional Resources     (1Q)

For the record ...     (1Q5)

How To Join (while the session is in progress)     (1R)

This page has been migrated from the OntologWiki - Click here for original page     (1R4)

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