Ontolog Forum

OntologySummit2009 Panel Session - "Toward Ontology-based Standards" - Thu 26-Mar-2009

Subject: Toward Ontology-based Standards - A Synthesis

Session Chair: Dr. SteveRay (ISO 10303 STEP; ISO 18629 PSL) - Openning - [ slides ]

Confirmed Panelists:

  • Mr. HowardMason (Chair, ISO TC184/SC4, BAE Systems plc, UK) - "Summary of our Standards Community Panel Session" - [ slides ]
  • Professor MichaelGruninger (University of Toronto, ISO 18629 PSL) - "Summary of our Ontology Community Panel Session" - [ slides ]
  • Mr. DavidConnelly (CEO, Open Applications Group, Inc. (OAGi)) - "Improving OAGIS with Ontologies" - [ slides ]
  • Dr. KatherineGoodier (OpenOntologyRepository Initiative) - "Introducing the Open Ontology Repository (OOR) Use Cases Forum" - [ slides ]
  • Mr. DavidLeal (CAESAR Systems Limited) - "URI for quantities, units and scales" - [ slides ]
  • Mr. NicolasFigay (EADS) - "STEP APs Formalization Suggestions" - [ slides ]


Conference Call Details

  • Date: Thursday, Mar. 26, 2009
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Agenda Ideas

  • Ideas for ontologized standards:
    • Units of Measure or UnitsML with BIPM
    • MathML
    • ISO 15926 Matthew West
    • ISO 10303-209 (structural analysis) David Leal
    • OAG specs David Connelly
    • Financial specs (MDDL, FIX, FpML etc. and ISO 20022) liaison via FISD DMWG with Bill Nichols
    • Financial specs reverse engineering into semantics repository (EDM Council) - Mike Bennett liaising with above
    • ISO 22745 ECCMA Open Technical Dictionary Gerry Radack
    • ISO 19440 Enterprise model David Shorter
    • Product properties - David Price
    • Product structure - David Leal
    • STEP APs (ARM+AIM+ARMAIMMappings+Modules+ConformanceClass or Options) - Nicolas Figay
  • ( ... add ideas and suggestions here)
    • Extensible Business Reporting Language (XBRL) Taxonomies
    • Universal Data Element Framework -


Agenda & Proceedings


  • 1. Introduction - SteveRay. 5 minutes
  • 2. Summary of panel session #1 - Howard Mason (confirmed). 15 minutes
  • 3. Summary of panel session #2 - Michael Grüninger (confirmed). 15 minutes
  • 4. Suggestions from OAGi - David Connelly (confirmed). 5-10 minutes
  • 5. Suggestions from OOR - Katherine Goodier (confirmed). 5-10 minutes
  • 6. A Units of Measure project - David Leal (confirmed) 5-10 minutes
  • 7. STEP APs Formalization Suggestions - Nicolas Figay 5-10 minutes
  • 8. Discussion and compilation of a short list of future project ideas. 30 minutes
  • 9. Discussion of the communique to be presented on April 7th. 10 minutes


Q & A and Open Discussion

===IM Chat Transcript captured during the session=== ... (lightly edited for clarity)

Peter P. Yim: Welcome to the OntologySummit2009 Panel Session - "Toward Ontology-based Standards" - Thu 26-Mar-2009

Subject: Toward Ontology-based Standards - A Synthesis (1VOG)

Session Chair: Dr. Steve Ray (ISO 10303 STEP; ISO 18629 PSL) - Openning

Confirmed Panelists: (1VCD)

  • Mr. Howard Mason (Chair, ISO TC184/SC4, BAE Systems plc, UK) - "Summary of our Standards Community Panel Session"
  • Professor Michael Grüninger (University of Toronto, ISO 18629 PSL) - "Summary of our Ontology Community Panel Session"
  • Mr. David Connelly (CEO, Open Applications Group, Inc. (OAGi)) - "Improving OAGIS with Ontologies"
  • Mr. David Leal (CAESAR Systems Limited) - "URI for quantities, units and scales"


Please refer to session details at:


anonymous morphed into YildirayKabak

YildirayKabak: Hi Peter, this is Yildiray Kabak. I'm assistant of Prof. Asuman Dogac

anonymous morphed into Michelle Raymond

anonymous1 morphed into Kurt Conrad

anonymous morphed into Katherine Goodier

k goodier morphed into Katherine Goodier

laurent morphed into laurent_oasis -> Laurent Liscia

Nicolas Figay: Re engineer existing standards is a good idea, as it appears from analysis and mapping exercise

with ontology language that numerous ambiguities exist. Such exercise was done on AP224 and AP203 by EADS

Joel Bender: EADS = European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company?

Nicolas Figay: Good acronym for EADS

Mike Bennett: Another good example is the various standards in the financial space - MDDL, FIX, ISO 20022, FpML, XBRL etc.

Nicolas Figay: What about replacing "integration of standards" by "federation of standards"?

anonymous morphed into YildirayKabak

Joel Bender: integration and federation mean different things to IT folks.

FrankChum: Energistics for Oil and Gas Industry standards

Nicolas Figay: Integration and Federation is also different for system engineers - or for enterprise collaboration

Nicolas Figay: Federation was here used for agregation of knowledge trunks formalized with heterogeneous language, at posteriori

Steve Ray: David - we lost your voice.

FrankChum: May need to call back in

Steve Ray: OK. In the interests of time, I asked Katherine to talk about OOR, then I'll let you continue your talk.

David Connelly: I am back in now

FrankChum: The Society of Petroleum Engineers is starting an Open Oilfield Ontology Repository.

Nicolas Figay: Is this repository related to Reference Data Libraries POSC CAESAR?

FrankChum: Not particularly. The POSC CAESAR RDL is related to ISO 15926.

FrankChum: The SPE initiative is inviting O&G companies and industry standards bodies to submit oilfield related ontologies to the repository.

Laurent Liscia: What I'm gathering from these very educational presentations like a good bridge between ontologies and standards

are: the ability to use ontology technology to validate the consistency of standards -beyond test cases and assertions,

this might to a new kind of formal validation system.

Nicolas Figay: Yes - it can be imagine with ontology language base on some logic

Laurent Liscia: I'm very intrigued with Open Oilfield

Laurent Liscia: Frank, we are creating at OASIS a member section called OASIS Blue

Laurent Liscia: Which is all about energy and sustainability

FrankChum: Laurent, good to know that. I'll look into it.

Laurent Liscia:

Laurent Liscia: The Member Section is forming and we definitely need ontology experts to make some of those future standards work.

Laurent Liscia: We also have the Conservation Commons on Board.

Laurent Liscia: Is there a link for Open OIlfield?

FrankChum: Maybe SPE initiative can join forces with what OASIS Blue


YildirayKabak: In OASIS SET TC we represented OAGIS Components and Fields through OWL.

We also represented UBL and GS1 BIEs through OWL. With these ontologies and with the help of description logic reasoners

and rule engines, we can find the relations among the semantically equivalent components, automatically.

Howard Mason: You probably need to look at the Open O&M consortium and MIMOSA who are also active in operation of

oil and gas plants through ISO TC 184/SC 5 (not SC 4)

David Connelly: Wow, that is interesting

David Connelly: maybe we should connect

FrankChum: Yes. Refineries are connected to MIMOSA.

Mike Bennett: Good point about equations and MathML. There are also equations in financial securities but somewhat different to engineering equations.

FrankChum: Upper ontology for financial securities?

YildirayKabak: Hi David, I will send you more details about our work tommorrow.

Mike Bennett: Indeed. For financial securities I have had to create temporary upper ontology stuff for math, geog,

business, accounting, risk etc. all of which I would hope to find a more stable upper ontology to draw on.

David Connelly: Thanks

YildirayKabak: Ok. Thank you.

Howard Mason: You also need to note that the basic business transactions covering finance, order/invoice/pay, shipping are ALL becoming based on

the ebXML Core Components - OASIS, SWIFT and OAGi are all involved alongside industry and regional initiatives

FrankChum: Using upper ontologies can be a challenge. Good best practices are needed to be shared.

Mike Bennett: @ Howard - agreed.

Laurent Liscia: I resonate with Howard. Then again I would note that Nicolas has uttered one word (or rather a phrase): intelligent agent,

that I think we are dancing around a bit. Is machine intelligence a can of worms?

Laurent Liscia: Let me qualify: "reasoning engine" is probably less contentious - thank you Nicolas.

Nicolas Figay: Laurent is true, it is more reasoning engine. But some were also calling it intelligent agents - even if not appropriate.

FrankChum: Semantic is the key for machine intelligence

Michelle Raymond: The agent's intelligence is not of issue. Focus should be on: 1) identification of 'input' available to the agent/engine

and 'output' from the agent/engine, 2) the formal representation of the structure and content for 'input' and 'output'

and 3) the place of the agent/engine in the "world".

Peter P. Yim: I am glad David Connelly brought up UN/CEFACT UCM in his presentation ... Scott Hinkelman (Acting Vice-chair of UN/CEFACT TMG

and Chair for their Unified Context Methodology (UCM) Project) was presenting at the OASIS SET TC just yesterday.

While "context" is, indeed, not a low-hanging fruit in what we are trying to do here, we should definitely try to start a dialog

with their working group in earnest.

... (I did suggest that to Scott, but maybe David could be our liaison, if you are already involved in that work)

David Connelly: Peter, I am on that UCM Working Group with Scott, and would be glad to be a liaison

Peter P. Yim: great! Thanks, David

Peter P. Yim: Just to provide the url to the OOR work that Michael Grüninger and Katherine Goodier brought up earlier

- please see:

Peter P. Yim: what's relevant is that the first public sandbox instance of the OOR is now online - see:

Peter P. Yim: (further, re the OOR sandbox) if the eventuality is a federated repository of standards that are persistently

available (on the web, probably) ... this could be one of the sandboxes that we can play around with those ideas

... the OOR team will be maintaining at least a sandbox instance and a production instance of the OOR ... and is

hoping to federate with any other organizations that are planning to host ontology repositories

Nicolas Figay: The link of the experimental semantic repository, with extended AP as OWL resources:

anonymous morphed into RaphaelBarbau

Stuart Turner: The licensing comment is an extremely important one and although "open source" is gaining traction, it applies

to source code, not content. Encouraging use of open content licensure for creative works, including models,

ontologies, documentation is so important (e.g. Creative Commons, Non-Commerical, Attribution, Share-Alike Unported).

Fortunately, recent moves by NIH, and MIT and even PloS to not only encourage, but require this for academic research

and publication is encouraging.

Steve Ray: Thanks for attending.

Michelle Raymond: My desire is to see standards represented in formats that are machine interpretable and formats that facilitate human understanding.

Laurent Liscia: Terribly sorry, I have to drop off the call ... Urgent call from OASIS staff ...

Laurent Liscia: Thanks all!

Joel Bender:

FrankChum: Is the IEEE UOM upper ontology the same way?

Peter P. Yim: @ FrankChum - quite a few of the IEEE SUO players are involved

- the OOR scope covers *not only* upper ontologies, but also domain ontologies - see some earlier thougths in regard to

moving "Toward An Open Ontology Repository" at:

FrankChum: @Peter Thanks!

David Leal: Some work on the use of terms such as "should" in engineering has been done in Gellish -

Howard Mason: While ISO seems to be fairly flexible in looking at new business models, the national standards bodies

- ANSI, BSI, AFNOR, DIN are still wedded to publishing paper. So even the new standards as databases approach

offers different levels of access, with different models. So definitions may be freely available,

but other information may be subject to payment. We need to ensure national bodies respond to the opportunity

Mike Bennett: EDM council semantics repository project, aligns with the ones i mentioned

David Connelly: OAGIS is doing the implementation verification for CCTS 3.0

Peter P. Yim: some work on "ontologizing" the UN/CEFACT CCTS by Ontolog members can be seen at:

David Connelly: Interesting Peter, have you started to look at CCTS 3.0

David Connelly: btw, Peter, OAGIS uses CCTS 2.01 in the standard now

Peter P. Yim: @DavidConnelly - not quite ... that pilot project has (sort of) ended a long time ago ... with a response

to the request for comments on CCTS v2.01 and suggested a dialog (which we haven't yet had)

David Connelly: ok, thanks Peter

Joel Bender: Thank you.

FrankChum: Thank you all!

RaphaelBarbau: thank you!

Peter P. Yim: great session ... thank you!

David Leal: Very interesting, thank you.

Mike Bennett: To clarify on EDM Council, we took the existing XML and UML standards ISO 20022/ISO19312, MDDL, etc. as a start point

to try and reverse engineer into some representation of semantics. We use a UML based OWL model (with some

additional extensions) to provide somerhing for business experts to validate. We are talking closely

with the above mentioned existing standards folks to try to reverse engineer rather than reinvent.

This is all mid-way through happening now.

-- end of transcript --

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  • Conference Date and Time: 26-Mar-2009 10:38am~12:30pm PDT
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