Ontolog Forum
OntologySummit2015 Symposium Chat Transcript for Tuesday 2015-04-14
[8:45] Michael Grüninger: Welcome to the second day of the Ontology Summit 2015 Symposium
[8:50] DavidBlevins: Whenever Todd arrives, would someone pester him to get onto the chat?
[8:51] Peter P. Yim: Hi
[8:51] DavidBlevins: Hi Peter
[8:52] Peter P. Yim: @Michael: are slides from this morning's keynote speaker available?
[8:52] DavidBlevins: Michael
[8:53] DavidBlevins: The Conference line was already dialed in
[8:53] DavidBlevins: whichever line was most recently dialed in needs to be hung up
[8:59] Brand Niemann: Good mornng
[8:59] Mike Bennett: Are we still starting at 09:00? The tweets from the Ontology Summt account say 09:30 but the Agenda says 9:00
[9:00] DavidBlevins: Good morning.
[9:01] Michael Grüninger: We are scheduled to start at 0900 EDT, although some people are delayed by weather (rain). Should be a few more minutes
[9:01] DavidBlevins: @Michael - audio seems to have cut out since the audio feedback event
[9:02] Michael Grüninger: We had some feedback problems before -- I am now enabling audio again
[9:02] Michael Grüninger: @PeterYim -- the slides are in the Dropbox folder, but I have not heard from Ken yet
[9:06] DavidBlevins: @Michael - sounds like we were hearing someone's congestive heart commercial?
[9:07] Michael Grüninger: We are still debugging an audio problem for the keynote (that was a sneak preview of the video clip)
[9:08] DavidBlevins: aaah
[9:09] Michael Grüninger: OK, the slides are available on the meeting page. Refresh your page first
[9:10] Michael Grüninger: == Keynote 3: Bradford Hess - Medicine and the Internet of Things
[9:20] Terry Longstreth: Dr. Hesse is on slide 7
[9:24] Terry Longstreth: Slide 10
[9:25] DavidBlevins: Thank you, Terry
[9:27] Terry Longstreth: 13
[9:28] Terry Longstreth: 14, He's moving pretty fast
[9:35] Brand Niemann: Glad to hear good medical data science from Kaiser and other leading providers. My Kaiser medical records are available anywhere I can get on the Web and even downloadable to a memory stick.
[9:35] Terry Longstreth: 23
[9:36] Brand Niemann: See Data Science for Natural Medicines and Epigenetics Meetup on May 4th: http://www.meetup.com/Federal-Big-Data-Working-Group/events/221457330/
[9:37] Brand Niemann: There is a history of failed medical theories like all disease was thought to be genetic.
There is a new book, Epigenetics, The Death of The Genetic Theory of Disease Transmission, which says all of the diseases that you have been told are genetic, are indeed not. "Epigenetics" explains various diseases and cites the nutrients that are missing.
Genes need "trace" nutrients such as minerals in order to make them function optimally.
So we are in the Age of Biochemistry, Nutrition, and Epigenetics
[9:38] Terry Longstreth: 25
[9:41] Terry Longstreth: 30
[9:46] DavidBlevins: @Brand: sure you have plenty to say about interoperability, given your history and participation
[9:47] Terry Longstreth: 35
[9:52] Terry Longstreth: 46
[9:56] Michael Grüninger: Coming up soon -- presentation of the Communique under the section on presentation-material/slides? - under: http://ontolog-02.cim3.net/wiki/OntologySummit2015_Symposium
[10:03] Ravi Sharma: he other chat room
[10:03] Ravi Sharma: Ravi Sharma: @Mark - thanks
Bruce Bray : note that this is yesterday's url. todays is listed further down the conf wiki page
Bruce Bray : http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/summit_20150414
Ravi Sharma: @Brad - what you think are prioritized bottlenecks in administering care and for decision support?
Ravi Sharma: @Brad - is NIJM like NIEM? for medical care?
Ravi Sharma: I meant NEJM? or it is New England Journal of Medicine?
Ravi Sharma: @Brad - we debated a movement allowing people to release their HC info to assist public health and Doctors, how is the concept gaining ground, as it would reduce costs?
Ravi Sharma: @Brad - donate data for public is a good example of controlling patterns of diseases?
Ravi Sharma: @ Brad great talk
Mark Underwood: Cite: Personal Data for Public Good http://bit.ly/1I9K9n6 @RWJF - by @BradHesse #patientcentric #ontologysummit
Mark Underwood: FYI the #ontologysummit twitter stream sometimes has links to some of the cited studies, authors
Mark Underwood: To contribute public comment ONC Health IT policy, see http://www.healthit.gov/facas/calendar to @knowlengr #IoT #HIT
Ravi Sharma: @Brad - slide 32 is showing need of ontology, where is that effort?
Michael Grüninger: Hello everyone -- this is yesterday's chat room. Today's chat is http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/summit_20150414
[10:14] Ravi Sharma: @all - capturing Brad's comments that inter-domain ontology in addition to ontology wrapper editor in slide 32 would help.
[10:16] DavidBlevins: There were a variety of problems, including scope creep, as well as issues of implementation. There's a massive report on the project
[10:16] Ravi Sharma: @brad - taxonomy is prone to failure as it is generally hierarchy based while we ontologist capture all complex relations among items of interest?
[10:19] Brand Niemann: DavidBlevins: @Brand: sure you have plenty to say about interoperability, given your history and participation Thank you, I do, namely data science simplifies the interoperability problem and one should start with the science and not try to boil the ocean of the general interoperabilty problem - e.g. Alan Turing's code breaking work
[10:20] DavidBlevins: @Ravi - The terminology problem entails both integrating prior information coded in older standards (many of which utilize a taxonomic structure), as well as creating systems that can utilize the new standards. We have to be able to work across the ontological continuum, including at the level of taxonomies
[10:20] Mark Underwood: Erroneously posted to the other chat session:
[10:20] Mark Underwood: Mark Underwood: Download link for Brad Hesse slide deck: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2015/2015-04-13_14_OntologySummit2015_Symposium/NIH-IOT-2015_BradfordHesse_2015-04-14.pdf
Ravi Sharma: @Mark - thanks
Bruce Bray : note that this is yesterday's url. todays is listed further down the conf wiki page
Bruce Bray : http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/summit_20150414
Ravi Sharma: @Brad - what you think are prioritized bottlenecks in administering care and for decision support?
Ravi Sharma: @Brad - is NIJM like NIEM? for medical care?
Ravi Sharma: I meant NEJM? or it is New England Journal of Medicine?
Ravi Sharma: @Brad - we debated a movement allowing people to release their HC info to assist public health and Doctors, how is the concept gaining ground, as it would reduce costs?
Ravi Sharma: @Brad - donate data for public is a good example of controlling patterns of diseases?
Ravi Sharma: @ Brad great talk
Mark Underwood: Cite: Personal Data for Public Good http://bit.ly/1I9K9n6 @RWJF - by @BradHesse #patientcentric #ontologysummit
Mark Underwood: FYI the #ontologysummit twitter stream sometimes has links to some of the cited studies, authors
Mark Underwood: To contribute public comment ONC Health IT policy, see http://www.healthit.gov/facas/calendar to @knowlengr #IoT #HIT
Ravi Sharma: @Brad - slide 32 is showing need of ontology, where is that effort?
Michael Grüninger: Hello everyone -- this is yesterday's chat room. Today's chat is http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/summit_20150414
Ravi Sharma: todd move to new chat
Ravi Sharma: Mike is this the right one?
Todd Schneider: Ravi, new chat?
[10:22] Ravi Sharma: yes todd
[10:22] Peter P. Yim: == Presentation of the OntologySummit2015_Communique
[10:22] Peter P. Yim: see: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2015/2015-04-13_14_OntologySummit2015_Symposium/OntologySummit2015_Communique.pdf
[10:23] Bruce Bray: It looks like someone copied today's content sent to yesterday's url to the end of this one. The messages were an attempt to get people onto this "correct" chat.
[10:23] Bruce Bray: THIS is the correct chat for today
[10:35] Mark Underwood: @Bruce, correct
[10:36] Mark Underwood: @DavidB - Do you know if anyone at Booz is working on ontologies for security & privacy frameworks? (or is my memory failing me?)
[10:40] DavidBlevins: @Mark - I do not *personally* know of anyone, however I would not be surprised if someone is. Could you clarify security and privacy? I.E. are we talking about device security, national security, etc.
[10:41] DavidBlevins: @Mark - There is a group that uses wireless sensors to implement location-based security, however I do not know (specifically) how they implement this. I could put you in contact with them, if you'd like
[10:43] Ravi Sharma: where is the agend link?
[10:44] Ravi Sharma: agenda
[10:45] DavidBlevins: http://ontolog-02.cim3.net/wiki/OntologySummit2015_Symposium
[10:46] Peter P. Yim: @Communique editors - typo "Recommendations, 2, "between different patters as microtheories ..." c/patterns
[10:47] Ravi Sharma: @Ram - testbeds or prototypes and validation suites either is fine
[10:50] DavidBlevins: Whomever just advocated for demonstrable use cases: agreed.
[10:50] Gary Berg-Cross: Follow up on Ram's suggestion that we add a 10th forecast (challenge) such as establishing a Testbed, I think that we should note that inserting semantic tech into current IoT efforts such as mentioned by Brad for IoT Medicine would be worth mentioning.
[10:50] Ravi Sharma: @David - thanks here it is: http://ontolog.cim3.net/OntologySummit/2015/schedule.html
[10:52] Ravi Sharma: @Mike - will there be a place where whatever is developed out of these recommendations lives on a website?
[10:52] DavidBlevins: @Ravi - Ah, yes, I linked to the page that had slides and the Communique
[10:52] Mark Underwood: The is a glitch in the PDF export of the TOC for the Communique - Can redo when this is reworked with references.
[10:54] Mark Underwood: @David B - I recall that it was a security ontology, and I think Booz may have had a rep here or at a different conf last year, though not as a presenter
[10:55] Terry Longstreth: Suggestions for expansions or additions to communiqué might be accommodated in IEEE submission. For example , adding need for demonstration or tangible evidence to validate use cases.
[10:55] DavidBlevins: @Mark - I work on an ontology that is used in a data archive, which requires us to handle data access control, but it isn't a security-specific ontology. If it wasn't me, it may have been someone else that attended during a different year.
[10:57] Mark Underwood: We discussed reprising Amanda's Zotero page, but are time-constrained this year. I suggested that near year's presenters provide these in Bibtex so we can post these in a more systematic way
[10:57] Mark Underwood: An #IoT definition was suggested as part of the Communique
[10:57] Ravi Sharma: I vote to accept the communique
[10:58] Ravi Sharma: Please make a request to vote approval of COmmunique!
[10:59] Leo Obrst: I too endorse the Communique.
[10:59] Bruce Bray: @Mark, will there be a way for online folks to see the demo content?
[11:00] Bruce Bray: I also endorse the Communique.
[11:03] Peter P. Yim: I endorse the OntologySummit2015_Communique
[11:03] DavidBlevins: I endorse the Communique
[11:12] Ravi Sharma: @Bruce - I had same Q. Thanks
[11:13] Steve Ray: I endorse the Communique
[11:16] Michael Grüninger: We are now starting the Demo session ...
[11:18] Mark Underwood: @Bruce - yes
[11:19] Terry Longstreth: On making med data available to ... See Hugo Campos on tedx and YouTube
[11:22] Mike Bennett: I endorse the Ontology Summit 2015 Communique.
[11:36] DavidBlevins: Interesting it's brought up, but this is something I've noticed as well. It's difficult for those that aren't familiar with the technology to understand the implications of some of the technology. A friend working with non-profits wants to utilize ontologies, but is being constantly set back by the lack of tools and "usable, practical" information on how to use and implement the technology
[11:36] Bobbin Teegarden: I endorse the Ontology Summit 2015 Communique.
[11:38] Ravi Sharma: Where can I see the demo URL?
[11:38] Ravi Sharma: utube link
[11:39] Ravi Sharma: @all - anyone actually able to see demo?
[11:40] Michael Grüninger: @Ravi - sorry, we were not able to setup a shared screen
[11:42] Ravi Sharma: can I see on Iphone 6 Utube?
[11:45] Mark Underwood: We are seeing a Android emulator screen w/ his app UI, a cmd line stream of KB events and phone buttons for what isn't on a laptop (e.g., Android menu button)
[11:47] Ravi Sharma: Thanks Mark
[11:50] Mark Underwood: It is arranged in three equal-size panes with a static phone button panel in the middle
[11:55] Mark Underwood: That was Gary asking about the rule reasoner
[12:04] Ravi Sharma: ok
[12:09] Mark Underwood: looking at slide w/ THOR ontology at the top in rsponse to Ram's Q about project KB metrics
[12:10] Mark Underwood: slide 12
[12:17] Ravi Sharma: @Steve - nice to see you.
[12:17] Ravi Sharma: We can hear and waiting for slides
[12:18] Ravi Sharma: iot.org?
[12:18] DavidBlevins: http://sensei-iot.org/
[12:18] Mark Underwood: Thx Peter - Sent to Ken for uploading
[12:23] Mark Underwood: William Miller now presenting demo of what began as XMPP - @MACT_USA http://www.sensei-iot.org/
[12:32] Ravi Sharma: where are the slides on that URL ?
[12:40] Ravi Sharma: XEP-0156 (PDF) Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods Standards Track Draft 2014-01-08 Is that for ontology?
[12:42] Ravi Sharma: @Mike and Peter - I found the following refs on
[12:42] Ravi Sharma: XEP-0324 (PDF) Internet of Things - Provisioning Standards Track Experimental 2014-05-21
XEP-0325 (PDF) Internet of Things - Control Standards Track Experimental 2014-04-07
XEP-0326 (PDF) Internet of Things - Concentrators Standards Track Experimental 2014-03-10
[12:43] Ravi Sharma: http://xmpp.org/xmpp-protocols/xmpp-extensions/
[12:45] Mark Underwood: The slide deck is temporarily at kryptonbrothers.com/media/wjmslides.pdf
[12:45] Ravi Sharma: However at the opening page there is no XEP for ontology?
[12:46] Mark Underwood: see http://ipdx.net
[12:46] Terry Longstreth: Www.ipdx.net
[12:46] Ravi Sharma: @William -http://xmpp.org/xmpp-protocols/xmpp-extensions/ has no Ontology related XEP standard / extension?
[12:49] Bruce Bray: Thanks @mark, currently on slide 36
[12:50] Mark Underwood: http://www.xchangecore.org/
[12:51] Mark Underwood: Questions will be offline - feel free to queue to the chat here - we are out of time
[13:56] Mark Underwood: starting up again in a few minutes
[14:02] Michael Grüninger: === Panel Discussion: Ontology and Standardization
- Prof. Eswaran Subrahmanian, Carnegie Mellon University (moderator)
- Elaine Newton, Deputy Standards Liaison, ITL at NIST
- Coulin Soutar, Technology Executive, Deloitte
- Henrik Stahl, Vice President, Product Management at Oracle
- Mark Underwood, Krypton Brothers
[14:09] Bruce Bray: Are there slides available for the panel discussion?
[14:09] Peter P. Yim: does the speaker have slides to go along with this brief now?
[14:10] Michael Grüninger: Yes, but there was a last-minute change of slides (i.e. I do not have them yet)
[14:10] Mark Underwood: Mark- Will have slides for my brief intro, but will mention http://bigdatawg.nist.gov/home.php and http://jtc1bigdatasg.nist.gov/home.php and http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=FHIR_Ontology_Requirements
[14:14] Mark Underwood: and lastly http://bit.ly/1zdPjcr
[14:15] Mark Underwood: [Correction: I meant to say I will have not add'l slides for this panel for myself]
[14:19] Bruce Bray: HL7 FHIR Ontology Requirements is mostly about syntax standards for connecting to ontology rather than an actual robust ontology
[14:21] DavidBlevins: ^ Which is exactly the problem.
[14:22] Michael Grüninger: The slides for the next two panelists is on the session page. Please refresh your pages
[14:22] Mark Underwood: All true but light years ahead of ontologies in other domains - unless you can point to better-architected standards-like effortjs?
[14:23] Mark Underwood: Ie., we would like to be at stage N+4 but we are still trying to identify starting points for N
[14:25] Bruce Bray: HL7 is an ANSI-accredited SDO. There is a Terminology group working on cleaner semantics representations, mostly based on SNOMED, LOINC and RxNorm terminologies which are our best semantic options so far.
[14:27] Mark Underwood: Bruce - Are they in conflict (eg w/ FHIR) or is it a maturity consideration?
[14:28] Evan Wallace: @BruceBray: What do you think of the Yosemite project? http://yosemiteproject.org/
[14:31] DavidBlevins: If Tim Berners-Lee were producing HTTP, but did not provide the web server, or web browser, would that standard have gone anywhere? There is a massive issue of absent tools or supporting technologies to drive adoption of ontology-based standards. We're constantly re-creating the wheel in order to simply comply with the standards. HL7 is notorious for the ambiguity and lack of facilitation present in the standards
[14:32] Bruce Bray: @Mark, they are currently quite useful for semantic labeling/reasoning and becoming better organized/coordinated, but still a lot of work to do. Healthcare is much more complex than some other fields - I'm jealous of the progress in other industries. FHIR will be an interesting playground to see where this goes, since it is much more agile than the older syntactic frameworks (V2, V3-CDA), There will be some sloppiness in the early implementations.
[14:38] Bruce Bray: @David, agreed. V3-CDA was an attempt to fix the ambiguities of V2, but at cost of implementability, thus FHIR. I think it will be good to see a few early examples of semantic interoperability implemented in FHIR. The jury is still out, but alot of energy being put toward this. Key will be good ontology resources.
[14:40] Evan Wallace: @DavidBlevins: Yes. Reference implementations or even basic proof-of-concept implementations can really be a catalyst for use that greatly increases the chances of adoption.
[14:40] Mark Underwood: I really must disagree that healthcare is more complicated - Domain knowledge is deep by definition. CS is a great example of that
[14:42] Michael Grüninger: Harry Foxwell's slides are on the meeting page now
[14:43] JimLogan: Link to meeting page you mean, please?
[14:47] Michael Grüninger: http://ontolog-02.cim3.net/wiki/OntologySummit2015_Symposium
[14:47] Peter P. Yim: @JimLogan - goto (or refresh) page: http://ontolog-02.cim3.net/wiki/OntologySummit2015_Symposium - slides are under the section: Prepared presentation material (slides) can be accessed by clicking on each of the following:
[14:50] DavidBlevins: @Bruce and @Evan - A massive issue I repeatedly encountered with HL7 was the lack of a tool to produce test data, against which one could verify whether a message interface was compliant with the standard. As we've seen with HL7 2.x, the absence of a common validation tool leads to shoddy compliance verification and wild variations in implementation. It seems to me that tools maintained by the standards body to verify compliance ought to be created and maintained; the absence of an objective, robust, point of verification is indicative of a standard that says a lot and does very little.
[14:51] DavidBlevins: Admittedly, HL7's CDA had a verification tool, which was an improvement
[14:53] Mark Underwood: One of the cites on this useful reading slide : http://www.oracle.com/us/solutions/internetofthings/java-iot-connected-vehicle-wp-2401533.pdf
[14:56] Michael Grüninger: This panelist has no slides
[14:57] Michael Grüninger: Coulin Soutar has no slides
[15:05] Mark Underwood: Some earlier work by this Coulin Soutar - http://bit.ly/1yrJ1v2 - Biometric identity (2010)
[15:15] Ravi Sharma: You mean machine instruction independent and not necessarily OS independent,?
[15:21] Ravi Sharma: @panel - Meaning of Term - vocabulary - is about things - objects and also including relations. Ontology in IT is the logical connectivity among Terms or Vocabulary items and is richer than Taxonomy which is implied hierarchy - while like neural networks, ontology is not taxonomy.
[15:23] Ravi Sharma: @Panel - Vocabularies - are these not used by OWL etc. in defining and developing the ontologies ?
[15:26] Ravi Sharma: @Panel - how is reasonable Natural Language transliteration into international languages achievable today and we can not do the same for developing ontologies that connect or relate the same NL concepts?
[15:30] Ravi Sharma: @Panel - everything in nature, especially at Gene level or at matter level tends to have some form of unique signature and many things are used as markers for discoveries, can the biometric identity process be generalized to uniqueness property depending on domain such as including carbon dating?
[15:32] Ravi Sharma: @Panel - what is the thread here? Are we finding identities that can help standardize ontologies? or what else?
[15:34] Ravi Sharma: I signed the communique by internet this chat
[15:35] Gary Berg-Cross: @Ravi I agree with you that ontologies use vocabularies. It is just that they do more to define what the concept associated wit h a term means as expressed in axioms.
[15:35] Ravi Sharma: @Mike - how many people physically attended the face to face physically approximately?
[15:36] Mark Underwood: Thanks to all of you who followed online through our regularly unscheduled glitches and for the good questions / dialog
[15:37] Ravi Sharma: @All - we move a vote of thanks to Mike and others who led thse activities and meetings over past 4 months.
[15:38] Ravi Sharma: 2008 OOR
[15:38] Peter P. Yim: +1 to Ravi's motion to thank the General and Symposium Co-Chairs and the Ontology Summit 2015 Organizing Committee
[15:39] Gary Berg-Cross: @Ravi We had 20-24 or so people here with some coming and going.
[15:39] Ravi Sharma: @Peter - thanks
[15:39] Evan Wallace: @DAvidBlevins: A number of standards organizations such as ISO require standards projects to produce conformance tests as part of the standard. But the best strategy to achieve interoperability of a standard varies with its context/situation.
[15:40] Bruce Bray: @Evan, The Yosemite project was a good statement of the value of RDF representations in healthcare. The most relevant similar project currently is the Open Clinical Information Model Initiative http://opencimi.org led by Stan Huff of our informatics group in Utah. I think OpenCIMI is a good example of a platform aimed at semantic interoperability for healthcare.
[15:40] Ravi Sharma: @Gary thanks - remote participant matched them, but I expected more remote international participants from EU etc than we did this time?
[15:41] Ravi Sharma: Leo's hand is up
[15:43] Bruce Bray: Thanks again for the content links - very helpful for the online group
[15:43] Mark Underwood: Leo indicates there will be some internal reviews
[15:43] Mark Underwood: needed before Mss. submissins
[15:43] Peter P. Yim: +1 to ToddSchneider's vote of thanks to Michael Grüninger for his leadership and dedication to make this Summit possible ... 2nd the nomination for his getting the Award
[15:45] Leo Obrst: Typically we need to build in time for the Applied Ontology journal so that some folks can put the document through a public release process, i.e., Ram and I, maybe others.
[15:45] Eric Simmon: @everyone - as an FYI - glad to talk about specific standardization efforts offline - just send me an email
[15:46] Ravi Sharma: +1 to add to Tood's
[15:46] Ravi Sharma: Todd's
[15:46] Bruce Bray: +1 for a set of grand challenges topics for next year
[15:47] Bruce Bray: plenty of them in healthcare
[15:47] Ravi Sharma: @bruce - varying events weather and surveillance in addition to HC!
[15:48] Eric Simmon: Global cities challenge info can be found here: http://www.nist.gov/cps/sagc.cfm
[15:48] Ravi Sharma: +1 for New ideas and challenge Qs
[15:49] Ravi Sharma: @mike - we need shared screen support if possible?
[15:51] TerryLongstreth1: Future topic: review and refactor results and ideas from past 10 summits.
[15:51] Leo Obrst: Thanks everyone for a very successful Ontology Summit!