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OntologyBasedStandards mini-series session-4 - Thu 2013-10-10     (1)

Session Co-chair: Mr. PeterYim (Ontolog; CIM3) & Dr. RamSriram* (NIST) ... intro slides     (1A)

Topic: The Case for a "Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard     (1B)

Program / Panelists / Briefings:     (1C)

  • Mr. RalphHodgson (TopQuadrant) - "The NASA QUDT Ontology & Handbook" with an Introduction by Dr. PaulKeller* (NASA) ... slides     (1D)
  • Some User-domain Standards Developers' Perspectives -     (1E)
    • Mr. SeanBarker (BAE Systems) - from Engineering & Systems Design ... slides     (1E1)
    • Dr. SteveRay (CMU) & TobyConsidine (UNC) - from Smart Grid standardization ... slides     (1E2)
    • Mr. MikeBennett (EDM Council) - from Financial Industry Business Ontology (FIBO) work (in absentia) ... slides     (1E3)
  • QUOMOS Developer Discussant -     (1F)
    • Mr. EdBarkmeyer* (NIST) - ___ [ slides]     (1F1)
    • Dr. MatthewWest (Information Junction) - from ISO 15926-2 work (Industrial Automation and Systems Integration) (in absentia) ... input     (1F2)
    • Dr. PatHayes (IHMC) - Making the Case for a "Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard slides     (1F3)
  • Open Discussion - ALL     (1G)
    • I. given what (standards works) are already available [[UoM|1], do we still see the need for a cross-domain, International Quantity and Units of Measure Ontology Standard (like what the OASIS QUOMOS TC has chartered [3]), and     (1G1)
    • II. if so, what could/should that QUOMOS ontology standard deliver, to best meet user needs and expectations?     (1G2)

... Remarks: *availability of these individuals may be affected by the US government shutdown (which started on 2013.10.01) and other factors     (1H)

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Attendees     (1K)

Abstract     (1L)

The Case for a "Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard ... [ intro slides ]     (1L1)

This is a continuation of the OntologyBasedStandards mini-series that got started in late 2012. Since we have already had two content sessions and a planning session, this session is labeled as "session-4". That (3rd) brainstorm/planning session resulted in a program of 8 topics which we will be covering partly during the rest of 2013, and partly in 2014.     (1L2)

Among one of the initiatives that spun off from OntologySummit2009: "Toward Ontology-based Standards" was the effort to work towards a "Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard ("QUOMOS"). A rather thorough survey of the landscape was done by the Ontolog Forum members, who then progressed the work to a standards development effort under the auspices of the OASIS QUOMOS TC.     (1L3)

In parallel, various similar efforts were also active - notably the NASA QUDT (Quantities, Units, Dimensions, and Data Types) Handbook and Ontologies that came out earlier this year. For today's session we have invited Ralph Hodgson, who led the development of this NASA/QUDT work, to give a brief introduction to this QUDT work.     (1L4)

On our panel today, we have invited various User-domain Standards Developers (users of QUOMOS), as well as key members of the QUOMOS team (developers of QUOMOS) to share with us their perspectives. After the QUDT presentation, our other panelists will give short briefings to help kick-start the conversation. An open discussion will ensue, which will revolving around:     (1L5)

I. given what (standards works) are already available [[UoM|1], do we still see the need for a cross-domain, International Quantity and Units of Measure Ontology Standard? (like what the OASIS QUOMOS TC has chartered [3]), and     (1L6)
II. if so, what could/should that QUOMOS ontology standard deliver, to best meet user needs and expectations?     (1L7)

What we really hope to gain out of today's session, is a dialog between the users and developers of the QUOMOS standard ontology, so that the work products from this effort will not be something that sits on the shelf, but something that meet the needs and expectations of its users.     (1L8)

Please also refer to details on the OntologyBasedStandards mini-series homepage.     (1L9)

Agenda     (1M)

The Case for a "Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard     (1M1)

  • Session Format: this is a virtual session conducted over an augmented conference call     (1M2)
  • 6. Open discussion - ALL (30 min.) ... (refer to process above)     (1M8)

Proceedings     (1N)

Please refer to the above     (1N1)

IM Chat Transcript captured during the session     (1N2)

see raw transcript here.     (1N2A)

(for better clarity, the version below is a re-organized and lightly edited chat-transcript.)     (1N2B)

Participants are welcome to make light edits to their own contributions as they see fit.     (1N2C)

-- begin in-session chat-transcript --     (1N2D)

Chat transcript from room: ontolog_20131010     (1N2E)

2013-10-10 GMT-08:00 [PDT]     (1N2F)

[9:25] Peter P. Yim: Welcome to the     (1N2G)

OntologyBasedStandards mini-series session-4 - Thu 2013-10-10     (1N2H)

Session Co-chair: Mr. Peter P. Yim (Ontolog; CIM3) & Dr. RamSriram* (NIST)     (1N2I)

Topic: The Case for a "Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard     (1N2J)

Program / Panelists / Briefings:     (1N2K)

    • I. given what (standards works) are already available [1], do we still see the need for a cross-domain, International Quantity and Units     (1N2V1)

of Measure Ontology Standard (like what the OASIS QUOMOS TC has chartered [3]), and     (1N2W)

... Remarks: *availability of these individuals may be affected by the US government shutdown (which started on 2013.10.01) and other factors     (1N2Y)

Logistics:     (1N2Z)

  • (if you haven't already done so) please click on "settings" (top center) and morph from "anonymous" to your RealName (in WikiWord format)     (1N2AB)
    • for Linux Skype users: please stay with (or downgrade to) Skype version 2.x for now (as a Dial pad seems to be missing on Linux-based Skype v4.x for skype-calls.)     (1N2AF1)

Tara Athan, TobyConsidine.     (1N2AK)

Proceedings     (1N2AL)

[9:11] anonymous morphed into Emilio Sanfilippo     (1N2AM)

[9:23] anonymous morphed into Ed Bernot     (1N2AN)

[9:25] anonymous morphed into Elizabeth Florescu     (1N2AO)

[9:28] anonymous morphed into Toby Considine     (1N2AP)

[9:28] anonymous morphed into Amanda Vizedom     (1N2AQ)

[9:29] Steve Ray: Looks like the Skype "joinconference" is offline. I'll use the phone instead.     (1N2AR)

[9:30] Simon Spero: Skype-out is not just local. Darn.     (1N2AS)

[9:31] Amanda Vizedom: Peter, is "joinconference" out-of-play for this call, or is it being worked on     (1N2AT)

and possibly coming online?     (1N2AU)

[9:34] Simon Cox: I see "joinconference" fine     (1N2AV)

[9:34] James Davenport: "joinconference" had problems but seems fine now     (1N2AW)

[9:33] Simon Spero: One person in Chapel Hill, one in Raleigh - but no-one in Durham to line-pool     (1N2AX)

with. Downside of cell-phone only life     (1N2AY)

[9:34] Peter P. Yim: there have been reports on problems with skype connections to "joinconference" ...     (1N2AZ)

if that problem persists for you, please dial (using your phone of skype-out) into the     (1N2AAA)

phone number: +1 (206) 402-0100 ... when prompted enter Conference ID: 141184#     (1N2AAB)

[9:34] Peter P. Yim: (for phone dial-in) ... some local numbers may be available (in the US, Australia,     (1N2AAC)

[9:32] Steve Ray: Google voice is working fine...     (1N2AAE)

[9:38] Elizabeth Florescu: "joinconfenece" still not working for me     (1N2AAF)

[9:38] Simon Spero: The local number for raleigh worked     (1N2AAG)

[9:34] Ralph Hodgson: Testing whether I am anonymous     (1N2AAH)

[9:34] Ralph Hodgson: No I am not     (1N2AAI)

[9:30] anonymous morphed into Bobbin Teegarden     (1N2AAJ)

[9:32] anonymous morphed into Pat Hayes     (1N2AAK)

[9:32] anonymous1 morphed into Sean Barker     (1N2AAL)

[9:33] anonymous morphed into Simon Cox     (1N2AAM)

[9:33] anonymous morphed into James Davenport     (1N2AAN)

[9:36] Sean Barker: How do I unmute?     (1N2AAO)

[9:37] Simon Spero: *7 to unmute (*6 to mute)     (1N2AAP)

[9:36] anonymous morphed into JohnMcClure     (1N2AAQ)

[9:39] anonymous morphed into Bruce Simons     (1N2AAR)

[9:39] JohnMcClure: hi all - mcclure here     (1N2AAS)

[9:45] anonymous morphed into Onno Paap     (1N2AAT)

[9:48] anonymous morphed into Elisa Kendall     (1N2AAU)

[9:46] James Davenport: Where are these slides?     (1N2AAV)

[9:49] Steve Ray: @JamesDavenport: The slides are found by the links on the conference wiki page,     (1N2AAW)

immediately after each speaker entry on the agenda.     (1N2AAX)

[9:50] Steve Ray: @James: Actually, more easily found near the top of the page,     (1N2AAY)

where you see "0-Chair" "1-Hodgson" etc. Those are the same links.     (1N2AAZ)

[9:50] Simon Cox: US Govt not so civilized just now     (1N2AAAA)

[9:52] Michael Grüninger: There is a great three-part BBC miniseries hosted by the mathematician     (1N2AAAB)

Marcus du Sautoy called "Precision: The Measure of All Things" outlining aspects of the history of     (1N2AAAC)

measurement.     (1N2AAAD)

[9:57] Amanda Vizedom: Thanks for that reference, Michael. Put it on my "to watch" list.     (1N2AAAE)

[9:57] Peter P. Yim: == Ralph Hodgson presenting ...     (1N2AAAF)

[9:58] JohnMcClure: these seem to be the slides. ..........     (1N2AAAG)

[10:02] Pat Hayes: question for Ralph: if you ask for force times distance, do you get Work or Torque?     (1N2AAAM)

[10:04] Steve Ray: @Pat: I presume you get all possible answers with the right dimensionality.     (1N2AAAN)

[10:06] Simon Spero: [ref. Ralph's remark that the QUDT work will be available online soon, after     (1N2AAAO)

another review] Ralph: Just put it out in draft form for testing.     (1N2AAAP)

[10:07] Simon Spero: Pat Hayes: The answer can be probabilistically inferred based on the name of the variable     (1N2AAAQ)

[10:09] Simon Spero: @Pat: source code is text. Scientists are not very imaginative when it comes to     (1N2AAAR)

naming variables - only when finding new ways to write fortran in whatever language they're given     (1N2AAAS)

[10:16] Simon Cox: What about UCUM?     (1N2AAAT)

[10:19] Simon Spero: @Ralph: skos:related denotes all relationships between two "things that     (1N2AAAU)

something can be about" apart from synonymy and hierarchy.     (1N2AAAV)

[10:18] JohnMcClure: question for Ralph: what property(s) are appropriate for associating an     (1N2AAAW)

instance of a quantity with a resource for which it is an attribute??     (1N2AAAX)

[10:19] Simon Cox: @JohnMcClure - wouldn't that be specific to the resource type?     (1N2AAAY)

[10:20] Simon Cox: i.e. part of your application     (1N2AAAZ)

[10:21] JohnMcClure: really, specific to a type? wouldn't they be of a common subtype ?     (1N2AAAAA)

[10:22] JohnMcClure: e.g. MeasurableThing     (1N2AAAAB)

[10:22] Simon Cox: owl:ObjectProperty?     (1N2AAAAC)

[10:23] Simon Cox: Ah - you want to indicate that it is associated with a measurement procedure     (1N2AAAAD)

[10:23] Simon Cox: In ISO 19156 I coined <<estimatedProperty>> stereotype for UML     (1N2AAAAE)

[10:23] JohnMcClure: well, perhaps QuantifiedThing - but that's more the base class of each of the types     (1N2AAAAF)

[10:26] Simon Cox: # good for classes and properties, / for individuals     (1N2AAAAG)

[10:26] JohnMcClure: sorry, misspoke a bit - I am talking about a common superproperty that relates     (1N2AAAAH)

the quantity resource to its attributed resource     (1N2AAAAI)

[10:28] JohnMcClure: so the question is: have you considered naming a super-property (or set of     (1N2AAAAK)

super-properties) most appropriate to relate the measurement resource to its attributed resource     (1N2AAAAL)

[10:29] Simon Cox: I think the concern is to explain in what way that is different to owl:ObjectProperty     (1N2AAAAM)

[10:23] Peter P. Yim: @Ralph: what flavor of OWL is used for the QUDT ontology?     (1N2AAAAN)

[10:41] Ralph Hodgson: @Peter - What used to be called OWL -Lite but a little more than that     (1N2AAAAO)

[10:41] Ralph Hodgson: @Peter - class axioms but no class expressions     (1N2AAAAP)

[10:24] Tara Athan: expansion of the scale model beyond these "classical" four would be an important topic for QUOMOS     (1N2AAAAQ)

[10:30] Tara Athan: I would like to know how to extra from QUDT just the subset of axioms that are     (1N2AAAAR)

needed for a particular application.     (1N2AAAAS)

[10:38] Ralph Hodgson: @Tara - extra -> extract?     (1N2AAAAT)

[10:40] Michael Grüninger: @Ralph: Are all ontologies that correspond to the content on slide 29     (1N2AAAAU)

[10:50] Ralph Hodgson: @MichaelGruninger - Not at the 1.1 catalog - will be on the 2.0 catalog -     (1N2AAAAW)

before that in GitHub - once NASA HQ review is closed     (1N2AAAAX)

[10:35] James Davenport: I may not be able to stay for the discussion, but in OpenMath/MathML, we     (1N2AAAAY)

regard 'pico' etc as prefixes, so we can build P*U units from P prefixes and U base units. Units are     (1N2AAAAZ)

again defined in terms of the base units.     (1N2AAAAAA)

[10:37] Simon Cox: @JamesDavenport - as does UCUM ...     (1N2AAAAAB)

[10:37] Ralph Hodgson: @James this is how QUDT is doing it too     (1N2AAAAAC)

[10:50] James Davenport: @RalphHodgson Then I must have misheard, I thought he said that kilonewtons     (1N2AAAAAD)

and piconewtons were units     (1N2AAAAAE)

[10:41] Simon Cox: @Ralph Where are upgraded QUDT ontologies, with extra properties on QuantityKind etc?     (1N2AAAAAF)

[10:42] Ralph Hodgson: @Simon - QUDT release 2 has not been released yet - it will be once the NASA     (1N2AAAAAG)

HQ review is done     (1N2AAAAAH)

[10:42] Ralph Hodgson: @Simon - expect schemas in next 4 weeks     (1N2AAAAAI)

[10:43] Simon Cox: @Ralph - no community review :-(     (1N2AAAAAK)

[10:44] Ralph Hodgson: @Simon - community review will follow NASA internal review for some things.     (1N2AAAAAL)

Other community reviews will happen - e.g. Life Sciences     (1N2AAAAAM)

[10:50] Simon Spero: Ralph - why not put them up on GitHub early so you can get pull requests     (1N2AAAAAN)

[11:01] Ralph Hodgson: @simon - we can do some release before NASA HQ review is done - this is coming     (1N2AAAAAO)

down to what cycles we have to get this done "now" - for me "now" is next 2 months     (1N2AAAAAP)

[11:03] Simon Cox: @Ralph - thanks - thats good,     (1N2AAAAAQ)

[10:45] Ralph Hodgson: @Simon - vaem and provo might provide the right semantics for mentioning other things out there     (1N2AAAAAR)

[10:50] Simon Spero: @Ralph : that's how the ISO C++ standards are being developed now     (1N2AAAAAS)

[10:29] JohnMcClure: URL please for Sean     (1N2AAAAAU)

[10:31] Peter P. Yim: @SeanBarker - oops! ref the format conversion error on slide#2; I will update the     (1N2AAAAAX)

slide deck after the session     (1N2AAAAAY)

[11:55] Peter P. Yim: re [10:31] corrected Sean Barker slides now uploaded and linked to the page     (1N2AAAAAZ)

[10:42] Peter P. Yim: == Toby Considine making his observations ...     (1N2AAAAAAB)

[10:44] anonymous1 morphed into Onno Paap     (1N2AAAAAAC)

[10:48] Peter P. Yim: == Pat Hayes presenting ... please bring up his slides - under:     (1N2AAAAAAD)

[10:51] Tara Athan: Indeed the definition of certain units changes (discretely) in time based on,     (1N2AAAAAAF)

say, versions of the VIM.     (1N2AAAAAAG)

[10:57] Tara Athan: [ref. PatHayes' slide #5] Stevens' scale is not enough.     (1N2AAAAAAH)

[10:59] Pat Hayes: Tara, by all means point me to other ideas.     (1N2AAAAAAI)

[10:57] Bobbin Teegarden: If CL, what tools implement it that are available for lowly system     (1N2AAAAAAJ)

architect trying to use these ontologies right now?     (1N2AAAAAAK)

[10:59] Simon Spero: Bobbin: There's Hets to some extent [ PeterYim: ref.     (1N2AAAAAAL)

[10:59] Pat Hayes: Bobbin, CL has parsers and reasoners (consistency checkers) but not al the     (1N2AAAAAAN)

connections to Web machinery (not yet).     (1N2AAAAAAO)

[11:00] Simon Spero: Bobbin: Also Fabian's PrIKL (which maybe he will have some time to work on this     (1N2AAAAAAP)

[11:00] Pat Hayes: Thats the reasoner I was thinking of :-)     (1N2AAAAAAR)

[10:59] Bobbin Teegarden: URL to Ontology Based Standards SIG? ... [ PeterYim: see -     (1N2AAAAAAS)

[10:56] Elisa Kendall: Peter and all, apologies for dropping off - I've really enjoyed some of the     (1N2AAAAAAU)

discussion and had hoped to jump in on FIBO (and on the Date Time vocabulary work ongoing at OMG,     (1N2AAAAAAV)

which is now in UML, CL, OCL, and OWL), but have a call I couldn't get out of. Will follow the     (1N2AAAAAAW)

discussion, though. ... [ PeterYim: Thank you, Elisa ]     (1N2AAAAAAX)

[10:58] James Davenport: @all, sorry, need to go now     (1N2AAAAAAY)

[10:59] Peter P. Yim: @JamesDavenport - Thanks for joining us, James     (1N2AAAAAAZ)

[11:13] Ralph Hodgson: @patHayes - thanks - I would like to review some aspects of the work with you     (1N2AAAAAAAA)

[11:00] == Michael Grüninger providing an overview on the role IAOA is playing to foster     (1N2AAAAAAAB)

[11:00] JohnMcClure: 'ontology-BASED standards' seems quite different from 'standard ontology',     (1N2AAAAAAAD)

right? An ontology-based std would be an ontology for specification of a standard, right?     (1N2AAAAAAAE)

[11:01] Simon Spero: JohnMclure: That's what some of the later sessions are aiming at     (1N2AAAAAAAF)

[11:01] Pat Hayes: JohnMcClure, that would make sense but its not the way the term is used, I think.     (1N2AAAAAAAG)

[11:04] Michael Grüninger: @JohnMcClure: "Ontology-based Standards" encompasses a range of efforts --     (1N2AAAAAAAH)

ontologies that are a part of a standard, ontologies that are being standardized, and ontologies     (1N2AAAAAAAI)

that are used to augment an existing standard to provide unambiguous definitions of terms     (1N2AAAAAAAJ)

[11:04] Amanda Vizedom: JohnMcClure: I think that there are use cases in play for both senses you     (1N2AAAAAAAK)

mention: (a) standards that specify that all data of some type must be captured / exposed in terms     (1N2AAAAAAAL)

of some ontology, and (b) standards that are themselves expressed in (& made precise, machine     (1N2AAAAAAAM)

readable, etc., by) some ontology. But certainly, the two uses are different.     (1N2AAAAAAAN)

[--:--] Peter P. Yim: @JohnMcClure - we scoped this out when the initiative kicked off in 2012 - see:     (1N2AAAAAAAO)

ref. slide #3 if the "[6-IAOA-Gruninger]" presentation there     (1N2AAAAAAAQ)

[11:04] Ralph Hodgson: @MichaelGrunninger - would appreciate a pointer to ontology registry web page     (1N2AAAAAAAR)

- rhodgson[at] - thanks     (1N2AAAAAAAS)

[11:05] Peter P. Yim: @RalphHodgson: - access to various instances of the open ontology repository - goto     (1N2AAAAAAAT)

[11:02] == Open discussion ...     (1N2AAAAAAAU)

[11:02] Pat Hayes: who is speaking?     (1N2AAAAAAAV)

[11:03] Peter P. Yim: @Pat - Tara Athan is speaking now     (1N2AAAAAAAW)

[11:04] Pat Hayes: @TaraAthan - (further to above [10:57]) Are the SSStevens cases wrong, or just incomplete?     (1N2AAAAAAAY)

[11:05] Pat Hayes: Ah, OK. Yes, the scale is not the unit.     (1N2AAAAAAAZ)

[11:05] Ralph Hodgson: @Tara - could you send me a pointer to what you just mentioned? Thanks - rhodgson[at]     (1N2AAAAAAAAA)

[11:06] Tara Athan: @Ralph - yes, I'll have to dig these up in my reference manager.     (1N2AAAAAAAAB)

[11:05] GaryBergCross: @Pat On your last slide you discuss 7 concepts. QUOMOS seems to include     (1N2AAAAAAAAC)

Dimension too. Is that important to add to your list?     (1N2AAAAAAAAD)

[11:06] Pat Hayes: @Gary Yes., I had dimension there but removed it because it has several meanings     (1N2AAAAAAAAE)

and I wanted to get them straightened out first .     (1N2AAAAAAAAF)

[11:07] Tara Athan: Plug for next week - the idea of "measurement" is related to the concept of "observation",     (1N2AAAAAAAAG)

which addressed by a couple of our speakers (SimonCox and Cory Henson) one week from now     (1N2AAAAAAAAH)

[11:10] GaryBergCross: @pat You have Measurement. Act of taking a measure value, or the result of     (1N2AAAAAAAAI)

such an action. This involves the idea of Observation and I would expect this to be explored by     (1N2AAAAAAAAJ)

@SimonCox in next weeks session of spatial standards and his talk on Observations and Measures.     (1N2AAAAAAAAK)

[11:09] Pat Hayes: [joking on the typo (now corrected) Tara had to correct in her last post] what we     (1N2AAAAAAAAL)

need is a generic English vowel.     (1N2AAAAAAAAM)

[11:09] Bruce Simons: @Ralph And the 'car speed' concept is and instance of the 'velocity' QuanityKind     (1N2AAAAAAAAP)

[11:10] Ralph Hodgson: @Bruce - speed is a property of the car - a property is a quantity that has a     (1N2AAAAAAAAQ)

quantityKind - in this case velocity     (1N2AAAAAAAAR)

[11:10] Steve Ray: I need to leave, I'm afraid. Will review the rest of the session from the archives.     (1N2AAAAAAAAS)

[11:11] Sean Barker: On uncertainty: I did not have time to mention the whole area of tolerances on     (1N2AAAAAAAAT)

engineering dimensions, covering not only variations in lenghts, but other measures such as straightness or circularity.     (1N2AAAAAAAAU)

[11:12] Simon Spero: Sean: The cyc UoM functions were/are variadic     (1N2AAAAAAAAW)

[11:12] Simon Spero: Sean: a single value is a point     (1N2AAAAAAAAY)

[11:13] Simon Spero: Sean: two values is a closed real interval     (1N2AAAAAAAAZ)

[11:13] Simon Spero: Sean: (or at least a closed interval)     (1N2AAAAAAAAAA)

[11:13] Pat Hayes: Simon, a point in 3space is 3 values, surely.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAB)

[11:14] Simon Spero: ScalarPoint, sorry     (1N2AAAAAAAAAC)

[11:14] Simon Cox: @Pat or is it a single value that can only be expressed with 3 numbers     (1N2AAAAAAAAAD)

[11:15] Simon Cox: change of coordinate reference system does not change position, only the way it is expressed     (1N2AAAAAAAAAE)

[11:15] Simon Spero: Also, the third dimension is just a theoretical hypothesis -     (1N2AAAAAAAAAF)

[11:16] Pat Hayes: I think a point in actual space is a physical system (hate that word) which has     (1N2AAAAAAAAAH)

measurable properties, such as where it is. The coordinates are the measurements on some scale.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAI)

Does that make sense?     (1N2AAAAAAAAAJ)

[11:16] Harold Boley: As mentioned by others, I think metrologists should be involved early on in a     (1N2AAAAAAAAAK)

"Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard. For practical applications, Canadian     (1N2AAAAAAAAAL)

metrologists could be reached via NRC's "Measurement science and standards":     (1N2AAAAAAAAAM)

[11:17] Pat Hayes: Harold, thanks. I have to say, metrologists in my experience do have rather     (1N2AAAAAAAAAO)

intense intellectual turf battles.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAP)

[11:16] Tara Athan: another multidimensional quantity is color (RGB, HSV)     (1N2AAAAAAAAAR)

[11:17] Simon Cox: @Tara - ooh - that is a complex area. Depends on human optical-perceptual system.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAS)

[11:17] Alex Shkotin: We should collect units of measure by science (from physics to biology).     (1N2AAAAAAAAAU)

Definitions come from particular science and its formalization.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAV)

[11:18] Pat Hayes: @AlexShkotin, also commerce and engineering.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAW)

[11:18] Tara Athan: units for currency - highly dependent on time     (1N2AAAAAAAAAX)

[11:19] Pat Hayes: Hopefully we can make it simply a matter of temporal indexing, so the unit might     (1N2AAAAAAAAAY)

be dollars-at-<dateTime> and the like.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAZ)

[11:19] Ralph Hodgson: @AlexShkotin - this is how QUDT is organized - domains of science and     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAA)

engineering - concept of discipline is distinct from domain     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAB)

[11:20] Pat Hayes: Another is hardness, which has many scales depending on measurement method, with     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAC)

complex nonlinear contextual mappings between them.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAD)

[11:21] Pat Hayes: I think an ontology at that point just has to classify them and hand conversions     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAE)

over to a specialist.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAF)

[11:21] GaryBergCross: people may be interested in the Ontology of Units of Measure and Related     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAG)

Concepts paper on OM (Observation and Measurement)     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAH)

[11:20] Tara Athan: there is bizarre stuff like atomic weights as well - it's dependent on space     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAJ)

[11:22] Tara Athan: the isotopic ratio of elements is variable in space - it matters for e.g. geology     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAL)

[11:23] Tara Athan: the atomic weights published in the periodic table are "typical" values     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAM)

[11:23] Pat Hayes: @Tara, do you mean the actual ratio varies with eg sample, or that the idea of the     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAN)

ratio itself is context-dependent?     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAO)

[11:26] Tara Athan: @Pat - there is a standardized value of atomic weight, and there are corrections     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAP)

that may be made in the cases the accuracy matters - not sure if these corrections have been standardized.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAQ)

[11:24] Simon Cox: @Pat - it has measurable properties OK (position), and vector decomposition as     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAR)

well. But position is conceptually a single value?     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAS)

[11:25] Pat Hayes: @Simon, good question, depends on your physics I think. Certainly it is in e.g. geography.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAT)

[11:25] Simon Cox: @Pat - geography is one of the places I play!     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAU)

[11:25] Alex Shkotin: @Ralph, I just want to say we formalize some science not just units of it:-)     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAV)

[11:26] Pat Hayes: @SimonCox Me too, especially maps.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAX)

[11:25] Peter P. Yim: Join us next week (Thu 2013-10-17) for the OntologyBasedStandards miniseries     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAZ)

session-5: "Ontology-based Standards in Geospatial Domains" - co-chairs: GaryBergCross & Tara Athan -     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAA)

[11:27] Pat Hayes: @Tara. Hmmm. I was hoping that the ontology could assume properties were real,     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAD)

then deal with accuracy of measurement later.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAE)

[11:27] Pat Hayes: So there is AN atomic weight, but we might not know it exactly. But for isotope     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAF)

mixtures, maybe not. :-((     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAG)

[11:28] Alex Shkotin: @Tara atomic weight is calculated by q-mechanics;-)     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAH)

[11:28] Tara Athan: @Pat - AN atomic weight based on the actual distribution of isotopes in the     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAI)

entire universe? That is certainly time-dependent.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAJ)

[11:29] Pat Hayes: Doesn't each isotope have its own atomic weight, so we are here talking about mixtures?     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAK)

[11:29] Alex Shkotin: @Pat, exactly:-)     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAL)

[11:30] Pat Hayes: OK, then that I think we can handle.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAM)

[11:30] Tara Athan: @Alex - atomic weight is the old-fashioned term for - I am talking about     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAN)

[11:31] Bobbin Teegarden: I think maybe Tara is saying that (a lot of) things we express are in the     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAP)

end only approximate, and we aren't dealing with that in ontologies (right now)...? Tara?     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAQ)

[11:32] Tara Athan: Each isotope has its own atomic mass, an element as a whole has an atomic weight.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAR)

I am talking about standards. There is a standard relative atomic mass for each element.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAS)

[11:32] Bobbin Teegarden: An atomic weight is a 'name' for an approximation?     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAT)

[11:33] Alex Shkotin: @Tara, thanks, this is why we need formal definitions:-)     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAU)

[11:34] Pat Hayes: OK, I will take that wikipedia article as a challenge. The ontology should provide     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAV)

enough concpets and distinctions that one can make sense of the discussion in that article.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAW)

[11:34] Pat Hayes: And now I have to leave to do some completely non-ontological stuff.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAX)

[11:35] Tara Athan: @Pat - yes, that is the point I was trying to get across - is something like     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAY)

atomic weight a quantity kind different from atomic mass?     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAZ)

[11:36] Pat Hayes: @TaraAthan, yes.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAA)

[11:36] Alex Shkotin: And "context" of particular science:-) Well, discipline;-)     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAB)

[11:37] Pat Hayes: @Tara - and the hardnesses all measure different properties, though related.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAC)

Contrast temperature scales, for example.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAD)

[11:37] Pat Hayes: Pater, is this IRC trace recorded for later reference?     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAE)

[11:37] Simon Cox: @Ralph - Discipline vs. domain?     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAF)

[11:38] Alex Shkotin: Good talk. Sorry, I need to leave. C u.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAG)

[11:38] Simon Cox: @Tara - Hardness (using traditional Moh's scale) is definitely *not* a 'quantity'     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAH)

as the units are not convertible.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAI)

[11:39] Pat Hayes: @Peter, OK I see it is.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAJ)

[11:40] Peter P. Yim: @Pat - yes ... as always - full proceedings, including slides, chat-transcript,     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAK)

audio recording, etc. will be openly available online (say, in a day or two) - check back at the     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAL)

under the "Archives" section     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAN)

[11:40] Pat Hayes: @Simon, but that is still a measurement scale which measures something. That's     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAO)

what I needed the scale type classification for, to distinguish the mere ordering from a     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAP)

units/quantities scale.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAQ)

[11:41] Simon Cox: Nominal vs Ordinal, ratio vs interval     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAR)

[11:42] Simon Cox: also circular, hierarchical,     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAS)

[11:40] Tara Athan: I hope we can pick up these discussions in a revived QUOMOS (I am a TC member).     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAT)

[11:41] Pat Hayes: OK, really gotta go now. Bye.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAU)

[11:41] Tara Athan: same here- bye     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAV)

[11:41] Peter P. Yim: @TaraAthan - look forward to talking to you in the OASIS QUOMOS TC     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAW)

[11:33] Simon Cox: A clarification - Simon Cox does not represent UCUM, just has used it a lot!     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAX)

[11:33] Peter P. Yim: Thanks, Simon ... duly noted!     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAY)

[11:33] Simon Cox: UCUM does not formalize quantity-kinds, only units. Focusses on unit conversions.     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAZ)

Leaves the other stuff for us (?)     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAAA)

[11:34] Simon Cox: But UCUM grammar for building unit symbols from primitives is worth inspection     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAAB)

[11:35] Simon Cox: (UCUM comments 'for the record' as I don't think voice was recorded) ... [     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAAC)

PeterYim: @SimonCox - voice *is* recorded and will be archived and made available openly. ]     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAAD)

[11:36] Peter P. Yim: @Simon & All - We have had conversations about UCUM with Stan Huff and     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAAE)

[11:41] Peter P. Yim: thanks for joining us from Romania, Elizabeth     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAAJ)

[11:42] Elizabeth Florescu: my pleasure, as always ;-)     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAAK)

[11:42] Peter P. Yim: bye everyone! Thank you all for the participation and contribution!     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAAL)

[11:42] Peter P. Yim: closing the chat-room now     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAAM)

[11:26] Peter P. Yim: -- session ended: 11:26am PDT --     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAAN)

-- end of in-session chat-transcript --     (1N2AAAAAAAAAAAAAO)

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