ConferenceCall 2024 03 13 - Revision history

Forum: /* Participants */

2024-03-14T01:23:40Z

Participants

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:23, 14 March 2024
Line 48:		Line 48:
	* [[MikeBennett\|Mike Bennett]]		* [[MikeBennett\|Mike Bennett]]
	* [[RaviSharma\|Ravi Sharma]]		* [[RaviSharma\|Ravi Sharma]]
	* [[~~Till Mossakowski~~\|Till Mossakowski]]		* [[TillMossakowski\|Till Mossakowski]]
	* [[ToddSchneider\|Todd Schneider]]		* [[ToddSchneider\|Todd Schneider]]

Forum: /* Participants */

2024-03-14T01:22:57Z

Participants

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:22, 14 March 2024
Line 35:		Line 35:

	== Participants ==		== Participants ==
			* Alexandru Todor
			* [[BartGajderowicz\|Bart Gajderowicz]]
			* Dan Brickley
			* [[DouglasRMiles\|Douglas R Miles]]
			* [[FabianNeuhaus\|Fabian Neuhaus]]
			* [[GaryBergCross\|Gary Berg-Cross]]
			* [[KenBaclawski\|Ken Baclawski]]
			* [[MarkUnderwood\|Mark Underwood]]
			* [[MatthewLange\|Matthew Lange]]
			* [[MichaelDeBellis\|Michael DeBellis]]
			* [[MichaelGruninger\|Michael Grüninger]]
			* [[MikeBennett\|Mike Bennett]]
			* [[RaviSharma\|Ravi Sharma]]
			* [[Till Mossakowski\|Till Mossakowski]]
			* [[ToddSchneider\|Todd Schneider]]

	== Discussion ==		== Discussion ==

Forum at 21:20, 13 March 2024

2024-03-13T21:20:59Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:20, 13 March 2024
Line 37:		Line 37:

	== Discussion ==		== Discussion ==
	== Ontology Commitments ==		=== Ontology Commitments ===

	[12:21] Dr Ravi Sharma: Fabian we learned that ontology is a collection of Ontological Commitments? Then how are relationships differentiated in this model?		[12:21] Dr Ravi Sharma: Fabian we learned that ontology is a collection of Ontological Commitments? Then how are relationships differentiated in this model?
Line 43:		Line 43:
	[12:36] Dr Ravi Sharma: stochastic models are a reality of nature so are all stochastic determinations against ontology commitments?		[12:36] Dr Ravi Sharma: stochastic models are a reality of nature so are all stochastic determinations against ontology commitments?

	== Consensus and Interoperability ==		=== Consensus and Interoperability ===

	[12:27] Dr Ravi Sharma: consensus among domain experts also needs experts in interdomain space? How is consensus developed then?		[12:27] Dr Ravi Sharma: consensus among domain experts also needs experts in interdomain space? How is consensus developed then?
Line 55:		Line 55:
	[12:41] Mark Underwood: Replying to "@Ravi In the IEEE WG... https://sagroups.ieee.org/2957/		[12:41] Mark Underwood: Replying to "@Ravi In the IEEE WG... https://sagroups.ieee.org/2957/

	== Hallucinations and Failures of Logic ==		=== Hallucinations and Failures of Logic ===

	[12:34] Dr Ravi Sharma: very badly it interpreted the even numbers?		[12:34] Dr Ravi Sharma: very badly it interpreted the even numbers?
Line 79:		Line 79:
	[13:07] Gary Berg-Cross: When the App is incorrect, it is interesting to see if it can explain why it responded as it did.		[13:07] Gary Berg-Cross: When the App is incorrect, it is interesting to see if it can explain why it responded as it did.

	== LLMs Lack an Ontology ==		=== LLMs Lack an Ontology ===

	[12:36] Michael Gruninger: The claim that there is no ontology within LLMs (which I agree with) seems to support the idea that ontologies still play a role in AGI, since we want explanations and arguments that are logically consistent.		[12:36] Michael Gruninger: The claim that there is no ontology within LLMs (which I agree with) seems to support the idea that ontologies still play a role in AGI, since we want explanations and arguments that are logically consistent.
Line 85:		Line 85:
	[13:09] Dan Brickley: these things don't have a single unified view, they contain multitudes, and that's their huge strength. You just have to go fishing to see what you can elicit :)		[13:09] Dan Brickley: these things don't have a single unified view, they contain multitudes, and that's their huge strength. You just have to go fishing to see what you can elicit :)

	== Prompted Ontology Generation ==		=== Prompted Ontology Generation ===

	[12:40] Dr Ravi Sharma: Is there a case for prompted Generative AI with LLMs?		[12:40] Dr Ravi Sharma: Is there a case for prompted Generative AI with LLMs?
Line 99:		Line 99:
	[12:54] ToddSchneider: If LLM’s are updated (with additional data/information), there may be no guarantee the same question/request will get the same response/answer.		[12:54] ToddSchneider: If LLM’s are updated (with additional data/information), there may be no guarantee the same question/request will get the same response/answer.

	== Miscellaneous ==		=== Miscellaneous ===

	[12:29] Dr Ravi Sharma: Asynchronous participation can be automated?		[12:29] Dr Ravi Sharma: Asynchronous participation can be automated?

Forum: /* Discussion */

2024-03-13T21:19:33Z

Discussion

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:19, 13 March 2024
Line 37:		Line 37:

	== Discussion ==		== Discussion ==
			== Ontology Commitments ==

			[12:21] Dr Ravi Sharma: Fabian we learned that ontology is a collection of Ontological Commitments? Then how are relationships differentiated in this model?

			[12:36] Dr Ravi Sharma: stochastic models are a reality of nature so are all stochastic determinations against ontology commitments?

			== Consensus and Interoperability ==

			[12:27] Dr Ravi Sharma: consensus among domain experts also needs experts in interdomain space? How is consensus developed then?

			[12:32] Alexandru Todor (DIN): One of the primary perspectives in the debate is that Large Language Models (LLMs) are incapable of generating consensus. However, this issue largely depends on the dataset used. If the LLM is trained on scientific papers, which inherently lack a pre-existing consensus, then naturally, it would struggle to create one. On the other hand, if it is trained on standards documents, which are the result of prior consensus-building processes, then the argument that LLMs cannot generate consensus may not hold.

			[12:35] Gary Berg-Cross: @Alexandru - I disagree. The LLM may use pre-existing consensus (as an object) but not build consensus by a reasoned process.

			[12:37] Mark Underwood: @Ravi In the IEEE WG on metadata standards, we are recommending a consensus-based standardization, similar to the observations by Fabian here. A central WG goal is to facilitate interoperability. See https://wiki.lyrasis.org/display/ARKs/Technical+Working+Group

			[12:41] Mark Underwood: Replying to "@Ravi In the IEEE WG... https://sagroups.ieee.org/2957/

			== Hallucinations and Failures of Logic ==

			[12:34] Dr Ravi Sharma: very badly it interpreted the even numbers?

			[12:34] Douglas R. Miles: Is this ChatGPT-4 or 3.5 ?

			[12:36] Dan Brickley: FWIW here is a quick test in Claude.ai (3/Opus) https://gist.github.com/danbri/af6d09514b80aefd98893fa567d18781

			[12:35] Michael DeBellis: One of the best integrations of knowledge graphs and LLMs is Retrieval Augmented Generation (RAG) Rag eliminates hallucinations by using a set of documents as the only oracle for truth. If a RAG system can't get the answer from the documents it says it doesn't know. RAG also eliminates black box reasoning because it doesn't just return an answer, it returns objects (e.g., representing documents) that support the answer. AllegroGraph has some great integration with ChatGPT to implement RAG. I've used it (together with Nivedita Dutta) with the DrMO ontology to build a RAG system that answers clinician questions about dental materials and products.

			[12:42] Douglas R. Miles: No ideal way or pathway to fix a mistake in a LLM

			[12:55] Bart Gajderowicz: Regarding the contradictory cave example, ChatGPT is trained to give you information that you would agree with. It’s very popular with marketers for that reason. Custom LLMs that you can train yourself do a better job of being consistent. This all assumes you give it data that is consistent with your beliefs. Starting with an ontology to contextualise input data goes a long way to remove inconsistencies.

			[12:58] Dan Brickley: I updated the gist link with another response from Claude, I asked it
			* Describe briefly 2 or 3 different approaches to representing caves in a small OWL ontology.
			** What are their strengths and weaknesses?
			** What are the key tradeoffs?
			* see https://gist.github.com/danbri/af6d09514b80aefd98893fa567d18781?permalink_comment_id=4986127#gistcomment-4986127

			[13:04] Dr Ravi Sharma: Mathew yes that is very useful line of thinking, chain of prompts. Another comment is hacking the logic or using inferences in the process to remove less logical answers.

			[13:07] Gary Berg-Cross: When the App is incorrect, it is interesting to see if it can explain why it responded as it did.

			== LLMs Lack an Ontology ==

			[12:36] Michael Gruninger: The claim that there is no ontology within LLMs (which I agree with) seems to support the idea that ontologies still play a role in AGI, since we want explanations and arguments that are logically consistent.

			[13:09] Dan Brickley: these things don't have a single unified view, they contain multitudes, and that's their huge strength. You just have to go fishing to see what you can elicit :)

			== Prompted Ontology Generation ==

			[12:40] Dr Ravi Sharma: Is there a case for prompted Generative AI with LLMs?

			[12:46] Dan Brickley: Maybe the rise of LLMs means that text-valued properties in ontology design may lose some stigma? Historically it feels like there's social pressure to model out everything explicitly with types, enumerations, codes etc rather than use natural language, because natural language was notoriously hard to compute with. Maybe that's changing (typing this as my audio/video is a mess; thanks for an interesting talk!)

			[12:48] Dan Brickley: Prompts can be millions of tokens now

			[12:49] Mike Bennett: If LLM does the right thing as long as you tell it exactly what to do, then it has more or less the same role as paper.

			[12:49] Michael DeBellis: The way to do it is not with prompt engineering but with RAG which I described above. I also build a BFO assistant that works quite well with just a few BFO documents: https://www.michaeldebellis.com/post/bfo_assistant

			[12:54] ToddSchneider: If LLM’s are updated (with additional data/information), there may be no guarantee the same question/request will get the same response/answer.

			== Miscellaneous ==

			[12:29] Dr Ravi Sharma: Asynchronous participation can be automated?

			[12:31] ToddSchneider: LLMs can have a bias among different ‘views’ of a domain.

			[12:50] Dan Brickley: (not to plug google stuff but...: https://blog.google/technology/ai/google-gemini-next-generation-model-february-2024/

			[12:59] Matthew Lange (IC-FOODS): Are the chats being captured/posted with recordings/slides? There's a lot in here.

			Ken Baclawski: The chats and recordings have been captured and posted. Slides are posted when they become available.

			[12:55] Till Mossakowski: I could talk about this next week...

			[12:55] Till Mossakowski: I mean about the topic that Fabian just mentions

			[13:05] Douglas R. Miles: Excellent Talk.. Thank you!

			[13:08] Dr Ravi Sharma: Cory Nice to see you.

	== Resources ==		== Resources ==

Forum: /* Agenda */

2024-03-13T17:29:05Z

Agenda

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:29, 13 March 2024
Line 24:		Line 24:
	** Abstract: The potential of large language models (LLM) has captured the imagination of the public and researchers alike. In contrast to previous generations of machine learning models, LLMs are general-purpose tools, which can communicate with humans. In particular, they are able to define terms and answer factual questions based on some internally represented knowledge. Thus, LLMs support functionalities that are closely related to ontologies. In this perspective article, I will discuss the consequences of the advent of LLMs in the field of applied ontology.		** Abstract: The potential of large language models (LLM) has captured the imagination of the public and researchers alike. In contrast to previous generations of machine learning models, LLMs are general-purpose tools, which can communicate with humans. In particular, they are able to define terms and answer factual questions based on some internally represented knowledge. Thus, LLMs support functionalities that are closely related to ontologies. In this perspective article, I will discuss the consequences of the advent of LLMs in the field of applied ontology.
	** Bio: Fabian Neuhaus is a senior researcher at the faculty of computer science at the Otto von Guericke Univerity in Magdeburg, Germany. His main research areas are ontology engineering and ontology languages. He contributed to the development of the Basic Formal Ontology, the Relationship Ontology, ISO Common Logic, and the OMG Distributed Ontology Modeling and Specification Language. Fabian Neuhaus is the vice-president of the International Association for Ontology and its Applications (IAOA). Currently, he is working on neurosymbolic methods for ontology extension and methods for integrating ontological knowledge in machine learning.		** Bio: Fabian Neuhaus is a senior researcher at the faculty of computer science at the Otto von Guericke Univerity in Magdeburg, Germany. His main research areas are ontology engineering and ontology languages. He contributed to the development of the Basic Formal Ontology, the Relationship Ontology, ISO Common Logic, and the OMG Distributed Ontology Modeling and Specification Language. Fabian Neuhaus is the vice-president of the International Association for Ontology and its Applications (IAOA). Currently, he is working on neurosymbolic methods for ontology extension and methods for integrating ontological knowledge in machine learning.
			** [https://bit.ly/48Uw52A Video Recording]

	== Conference Call Information ==		== Conference Call Information ==

Forum: /* Agenda */

2024-03-07T16:09:36Z

Agenda

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:09, 7 March 2024
Line 21:		Line 21:

	== Agenda ==		== Agenda ==
	* '''[[FabianNeuhaus\|Fabian Neuhaus]]''' ''Ontologies in the era of large language models ~~– a perspective~~''		* '''[[FabianNeuhaus\|Fabian Neuhaus]]''' ''Ontologies in the era of large language models''
			** Abstract: The potential of large language models (LLM) has captured the imagination of the public and researchers alike. In contrast to previous generations of machine learning models, LLMs are general-purpose tools, which can communicate with humans. In particular, they are able to define terms and answer factual questions based on some internally represented knowledge. Thus, LLMs support functionalities that are closely related to ontologies. In this perspective article, I will discuss the consequences of the advent of LLMs in the field of applied ontology.
			** Bio: Fabian Neuhaus is a senior researcher at the faculty of computer science at the Otto von Guericke Univerity in Magdeburg, Germany. His main research areas are ontology engineering and ontology languages. He contributed to the development of the Basic Formal Ontology, the Relationship Ontology, ISO Common Logic, and the OMG Distributed Ontology Modeling and Specification Language. Fabian Neuhaus is the vice-president of the International Association for Ontology and its Applications (IAOA). Currently, he is working on neurosymbolic methods for ontology extension and methods for integrating ontological knowledge in machine learning.

	== Conference Call Information ==		== Conference Call Information ==

Forum at 05:56, 17 February 2024

2024-02-17T05:56:51Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:56, 17 February 2024
Line 8:		Line 8:
	\|-		\|-
	! scope="row" rowspan="3" \| Date/Time		! scope="row" rowspan="3" \| Date/Time
	\| [[has date::13 Mar 2024 17:00 GMT]]		\| [[has date::13 Mar 2024 16:00 GMT]]
	\|-		\|-
	\| 9:00am ~~PST~~/12:00pm ~~EST~~		\| 9:00am PDT/12:00pm EDT
	\|-		\|-
	\| 5:00pm GMT/6:00pm ~~CET~~		\| 4:00pm GMT/5:00pm CST
	\|-		\|-
	! scope="row" \| Convener		! scope="row" \| Convener
Line 25:		Line 25:
	== Conference Call Information ==		== Conference Call Information ==
	* Date: '''Wednesday, 13 March 2024'''		* Date: '''Wednesday, 13 March 2024'''
	* Start Time: 9:00am ~~PST~~ / 12:00pm ~~EST~~ / 6:00pm CET / 5:00pm GMT / ~~1700~~ UTC		* Start Time: 9:00am PDT / 12:00pm EDT / 5:00pm CET / 4:00pm GMT / 1600 UTC
	** ref: [http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=3&day=13&year=2024&hour=12&min=00&sec=0&p1=179 World Clock]		** ref: [http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=3&day=13&year=2024&hour=12&min=00&sec=0&p1=179 World Clock]
			** Note: The US and Canada are on Daylight Saving Time while Europe has not yet changed.
	* Expected Call Duration: 1 hour		* Expected Call Duration: 1 hour
	{{:OntologySummit2024/ConferenceCallInformation}}		{{:OntologySummit2024/ConferenceCallInformation}}

Forum at 05:42, 17 February 2024

2024-02-17T05:42:01Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:42, 17 February 2024
Line 15:		Line 15:
	\|-		\|-
	! scope="row" \| Convener		! scope="row" \| Convener
	\| [[convener::~~KenBaclawski~~\|~~Ken Baclawski~~]]		\| [[convener::GaryBergCross\|Gary Berg-Cross]]
	\|}		\|}

Forum: Created page with "{| class="wikitable" style="float:right; margin-left: 10px;" border="1" cellpadding="10" |- ! scope="row" | Session | session::LLMs, Ontologies and KGs |- ! scope="row" | Duration | duration::1 hour |- ! scope="row" rowspan="3" | Date/Time | has date::13 Mar 2024 17:00 GMT |- | 9:00am PST/12:00pm EST |- | 5:00pm GMT/6:00pm CET |- ! scope="row" | Convener | Ken Baclawski |} = Ontology Summit 2024 {{#show:{{PAG..."

2024-02-17T05:40:47Z

Created page with "{| class="wikitable" style="float:right; margin-left: 10px;" border="1" cellpadding="10" |- ! scope="row" | Session | session::LLMs, Ontologies and KGs |- ! scope="row" | Duration | duration::1 hour |- ! scope="row" rowspan="3" | Date/Time | has date::13 Mar 2024 17:00 GMT |- | 9:00am PST/12:00pm EST |- | 5:00pm GMT/6:00pm CET |- ! scope="row" | Convener | Ken Baclawski |} = Ontology Summit 2024 {{#show:{{PAG..."

New page

{| class="wikitable" style="float:right; margin-left: 10px;" border="1" cellpadding="10"
|-
! scope="row" | Session
| [[session::LLMs, Ontologies and KGs]]
|-
! scope="row" | Duration
| [[duration::1 hour]]
|-
! scope="row" rowspan="3" | Date/Time
| [[has date::13 Mar 2024 17:00 GMT]]
|-
| 9:00am PST/12:00pm EST
|-
| 5:00pm GMT/6:00pm CET
|-
! scope="row" | Convener
| [[convener::KenBaclawski|Ken Baclawski]]
|}

= [[OntologySummit2024|Ontology Summit 2024]] {{#show:{{PAGENAME}}|?session}} =

== Agenda ==
* '''[[FabianNeuhaus|Fabian Neuhaus]]''' ''Ontologies in the era of large language models – a perspective''

== Conference Call Information ==
* Date: '''Wednesday, 13 March 2024'''
* Start Time: 9:00am PST / 12:00pm EST / 6:00pm CET / 5:00pm GMT / 1700 UTC
** ref: [http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=3&day=13&year=2024&hour=12&min=00&sec=0&p1=179 World Clock]
* Expected Call Duration: 1 hour
{{:OntologySummit2024/ConferenceCallInformation}}

== Participants ==

== Discussion ==

== Resources ==

== Previous Meetings ==
{{#ask: [[Category:OntologySummit2024]] [[Category:Icom_conf_Conference]] [[<<ConferenceCall_2024_03_13]]
|?|?Session|mainlabel=-|order=desc|limit=3}}

== Next Meetings ==
{{#ask: [[Category:OntologySummit2024]] [[Category:Icom_conf_Conference]] [[>>ConferenceCall_2024_03_13]]
|?|?Session|mainlabel=-|order=asc|limit=3}}

[[Category:OntologySummit2024]]
[[Category:Icom_conf_Conference]]
[[Category:Occurrence| ]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:23, 14 March 2024
Line 48:		Line 48:
	* [[MikeBennett\|Mike Bennett]]		* [[MikeBennett\|Mike Bennett]]
	* [[RaviSharma\|Ravi Sharma]]		* [[RaviSharma\|Ravi Sharma]]
	* [[~~Till Mossakowski~~\|Till Mossakowski]]		* [[TillMossakowski\|Till Mossakowski]]
	* [[ToddSchneider\|Todd Schneider]]		* [[ToddSchneider\|Todd Schneider]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:22, 14 March 2024
Line 35:		Line 35:

	== Participants ==		== Participants ==
			* Alexandru Todor
			* [[BartGajderowicz\|Bart Gajderowicz]]
			* Dan Brickley
			* [[DouglasRMiles\|Douglas R Miles]]
			* [[FabianNeuhaus\|Fabian Neuhaus]]
			* [[GaryBergCross\|Gary Berg-Cross]]
			* [[KenBaclawski\|Ken Baclawski]]
			* [[MarkUnderwood\|Mark Underwood]]
			* [[MatthewLange\|Matthew Lange]]
			* [[MichaelDeBellis\|Michael DeBellis]]
			* [[MichaelGruninger\|Michael Grüninger]]
			* [[MikeBennett\|Mike Bennett]]
			* [[RaviSharma\|Ravi Sharma]]
			* [[Till Mossakowski\|Till Mossakowski]]
			* [[ToddSchneider\|Todd Schneider]]

	== Discussion ==		== Discussion ==