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Ontology Summit 2014 session-10 Track-C: Overcoming Ontology Engineering Bottlenecks - II - Thu 2014-03-20     (1)

  • Summit Theme: OntologySummit2014: "Big Data and Semantic Web Meet Applied Ontology"     (1A)
  • Session Topic: Track-C: Overcoming Ontology Engineering Bottlenecks - II     (1B)

Panelists / Briefings:     (1E)

  • Professor OscarCorcho (Universidad Politecnica de Madrid) - "10 basic rules to overcome ontology engineering deadlocks in collaborative ontology engineering tasks" ... slides     (1F)
  • Dr. DhavalThakker (University of Leeds) - "Modeling Cultural Variations in Interpersonal Communication for Augmenting User Generated Content" ... slides     (1G)
  • Dr. PeterHaase (Fluid Operations) (in absentia) - "Developing Semantic Applications with the Information Workbench - Aspects of Ontology Engineering" (to be presented by JohannesTrame) ... slides     (1H)

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        • Add the contact "joinconference" to your skype contact list first. To participate in the teleconference, make a skype call to "joinconference", then open the dial pad (see platform-specific instructions below) and enter the Conference ID: 141184# when prompted.     (1I7D2B1)
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Attendees     (1J)

Abstract     (1K)

Overcoming Ontology Engineering Bottlenecks - II ... intro slides     (1K1)

This is our 9th Ontology Summit, a joint initiative by Ontolog, NIST, NCOR, NCBO, IAOA & NCO_NITRD with the support of our co-sponsors.     (1K2)

Since the beginnings of the Semantic Web, ontologies have played key roles in the design and deployment of new semantic technologies. Yet over the years, the level of collaboration between the Semantic Web and Applied Ontology communities has been much less than expected. Within Big Data applications, ontologies appear to have had little impact.     (1K3)

This year's Ontology Summit is an opportunity for building bridges between the Semantic Web, Linked Data, Big Data, and Applied Ontology communities. On the one hand, the Semantic Web, Linked Data, and Big Data communities can bring a wide array of real problems (such as performance and scalability challenges and the variety problem in Big Data) and technologies (automated reasoning tools) that can make use of ontologies. On the other hand, the Applied Ontology community can bring a large body of common reusable content (ontologies) and ontological analysis techniques. Identifying and overcoming ontology engineering bottlenecks is critical for all communities.     (1K4)

Ontology Summit 2014 will pose and address the primary challenges in these areas of interaction among the different communities. The Summit activities will bring together insights and methods from these different communities, synthesize new insights, and disseminate knowledge across field boundaries.     (1K5)

In this session we will look at a range of ways that bottlenecks arise and can be overcome, including annotating linked data, overcoming deadlocks in ontology development, and using a workbench to develop semantic applications.     (1K6)

After the panelists briefings, there will be time for Q&A and an open discussion among the panel and all participants.     (1K7)

See more details at: OntologySummit2014 (homepage for this summit)     (1K8)

Briefings     (1K9)

  • Professor OscarCorcho (Universidad Politecnica de Madrid) - "10 basic rules to overcome ontology engineering deadlocks in collaborative ontology engineering tasks" ... slides     (1K9A)
    • Abstract: ... This talk will be based on our experience in the development of a suite of ontologies for different stakeholders from the public administration in Spain. In this collaborative ontology engineering effort we have faced a good number of difficulties that were about to produce deadlocks in our ontology engineering activity. We will discuss about the techniques that we have used in order to face them, many of which stem from traditional ontology engineering practice, and will reflect on the varying degrees of success in their application.     (1K9A1)
  • Dr. DhavalThakker (University of Leeds) - "Modeling Cultural Variations in Interpersonal Communication for Augmenting User Generated Content" ... slides     (1K9B)
    • Abstract: ... There is a plethora of user-generated content on the Social Web containing user opinions and experiences on interpersonal communication. Culture is a key factor in interpersonal communication. User contributions can be a rich source to discover cultural variations in interpersonal communication, expressing perspectives of contributors with diverse demography and cultural profiles. One of the ways to mine user-generated content is using semantic augmentation, which relies on knowledge structures offered by ontologies. In this work, carried out in the context of the EU project ImREAL, we have followed a theory-driven approach for developing cultural variations in interpersonal communication as part of Activity Model Ontology (AMOn+) for augmenting user-generated content. Specifically we have utilised established theories on culture to provide base knowledge structure to the conceptualization. For extending the base structure and to achieve more concrete conceptualization, we have utilized DBpedia. We evaluate the resultant ontology with augmentation of user-generated content to test its fit-for-purpose utility. Our approach highlights the challenges and opportunities posed by using crowd-sourced, open ontologies such as DBpedia.     (1K9B1)
  • Dr. PeterHaase (Fluid Operations) - "Developing Semantic Applications with the Information Workbench - Aspects of Ontology Engineering" ... slides     (1K9C)
    • Abstract: ... The Information Workbench is a platform for the development of semantic applications. It comes with a solution development kit (SDK) and a flexible, ontology-driven user interface that allows to easily create new solutions for different industries and domains. The SDK includes an open API, semantic data integration through data providers, support for OWL ontology modeling and semantic data management, rules and workflows, as well an extensible pool of widgets for data interaction. The ontology is the "backbone" of the application that defines how data is integrated, structured and presented in the user interface. In the presentation, we outline our approach of ontology engineering and corresponding application development, including aspects of ontology reuse and tradeoffs in expressiveness vs. pragmatics. We also present application scenarios in different domains, such as data center management and social media.     (1K9C1)

Agenda     (1L)

OntologySummit2014 session-01 Track-A: Common Reusable Semantic Content-I     (1L1)

Session Format: this is a virtual session conducted over an augmented conference call     (1L2)

Proceedings     (1M)

Please refer to the above     (1M1)

IM Chat Transcript captured during the session    (1M2)

see raw transcript here.     (1M2A)

(for better clarity, the version below is a re-organized and lightly edited chat-transcript.)     (1M2B)

Participants are welcome to make light edits to their own contributions as they see fit.     (1M2C)

-- begin in-session chat-transcript --     (1M2D)


Chat transcript from room: summit_20140320     (1M2E)

2014-03-20 GMT-08:00 [PDT]     (1M2F)


[8:34] Peter P. Yim: Welcome to the     (1M2G)

Ontology Summit 2014 session-10 Track-C: Overcoming Ontology Engineering Bottlenecks - II - Thu 2014-03-20     (1M2H)

Summit Theme: Summit Theme: Ontology Summit 2014: "Big Data and Semantic Web Meet Applied Ontology"     (1M2I)

Session Topic: Track-C: Overcoming Ontology Engineering Bottlenecks - II     (1M2J)

Track-C Co-champions:     (1M2K)

Professor Krzysztof Janowicz (University of California, Santa Barbara),     (1M2L)

Professor Pascal Hitzler (Wright State University),     (1M2M)

Dr. Matthew West (Information Junction)     (1M2N)

Session Co-chairs: Professor Krzysztof Janowicz and Dr. Matthew West     (1M2O)

Panelists / Briefings:     (1M2P)

  • Professor Oscar Corcho (Universidad Politecnica de Madrid) - "10 basic rules to overcome ontology engineering deadlocks in collaborative ontology engineering tasks"     (1M2Q)
  • Dr. Dhaval Thakker (University of Leeds) - "Modeling Cultural Variations in Interpersonal Communication for Augmenting User Generated Content"     (1M2R)
  • Dr. Peter Haase (Fluid Operations) (in absentia) - "Developing Semantic Applications with the Information Workbench - Aspects of Ontology Engineering" (to be presented by JohannesTrame)     (1M2S)

Logistics:     (1M2T)

  • (if you haven't already done so) please click on "settings" (top center) and morph from "anonymous" to your RealName; also please enable "Show timestamps" while there.     (1M2V)
  • Mute control (phone keypad): *7 to un-mute ... *6 to mute     (1M2W)

(i.e. even if it says it is "offline," you should still be able to connect to it.)     (1M2Z)

VoIP line, etc.) either your phone, skype-out or google-voice and call the US dial-in number: +1 (206) 402-0100     (1M2AB)

... when prompted enter Conference ID: 141184#     (1M2AC)

  • when posting in this Chat-room, kindly observe the following ...     (1M2AG)
    • whenever a name is used, please use the full WikiWord name format (every time you don't, some volunteer will have to make an edit afterwards)     (1M2AH1)
    • always provide context (like: "[ref. JaneDoe's slide#12], I think the point about context is great" ... rather than "that's great!"     (1M2AI1)

as the latter would mean very little in the archives.)     (1M2AJ)

the timestamp (in PST) of his/her post that you are responding to (e.g. "@JaneDoe [11:09] - I agree, but, ...")     (1M2AL)

    • use fully qualified url's (include http:// ) without symbols (like punctuations or parentheses, etc.) right before of after that URL     (1M2AM1)

proceedings     (1M2AU)

[9:20] anonymous morphed into Carmen Chui     (1M2AV)

[9:22] anonymous morphed into Johannes Trame     (1M2AW)

[9:24] anonymous morphed into Oscar Corcho     (1M2AX)

[9:25] anonymous morphed into Dhaval Thakker     (1M2AY)

[9:27] anonymous morphed into Paul Witherell     (1M2AAA)

[9:28] Mark Fox: I'm here - no Microphone.     (1M2AAB)

[9:29] Pascal Hitzler: Is the VNC session already online? Seems I can't connect     (1M2AAC)

[9:31] Krzysztof Janowicz: VNC is not working for me (at the moment)     (1M2AAD)

... [PeterYim responded verbally: Yes it is working, but strictly optional; so     (1M2AAE)

don't worry, if you can't access it for any reason now.]     (1M2AAF)

[9:40] Krzysztof Janowicz: Usually VNC works for me but not this time. Anyway, we can just download the slides.     (1M2AAG)

[9:31] anonymous morphed into Conrad Beaulieu     (1M2AAH)

[9:34] anonymous morphed into Les Morgan     (1M2AAI)

[9:36] anonymous morphed into Bart Gajderowicz     (1M2AAJ)

[9:37] Oscar Corcho: that's strange     (1M2AAK)

[9:37] Oscar Corcho: I was unmuted     (1M2AAL)

[9:37] Oscar Corcho: Sorry, I was able to speak before. I will call again     (1M2AAM)

[9:37] Matthew West: You need *7 on your Skype keypad to unmute yourself     (1M2AAN)

[9:37] Jaana Takis morphed into JaanaTakis     (1M2AAP)

[9:38] anonymous2 morphed into Lamar Henderson     (1M2AAQ)

[9:38] Peter P. Yim: are you on the call yet, Oscar?     (1M2AAR)

[9:39] Amanda Vizedom: Someone who is unmuted is creating some background noise (typing, paper-shuffling)     (1M2AAS)

[9:41] Peter P. Yim: == Krzysztof Janowicz starts the session ... see slides under:     (1M2AAT)

[9:43] anonymous1 morphed into Bobbin Teegarden     (1M2AAV)

[9:44] Peter P. Yim: @anonymous: (if you haven't already done so) please click on "settings" (top     (1M2AAW)

center) and morph from "anonymous" to your RealName     (1M2AAX)

[9:46] Peter P. Yim: == Oscar Corcho presenting ...     (1M2AAY)

[9:53] anonymous1 morphed into Simon Spero     (1M2AAZ)

[9:55] anonymous1 morphed into Dennis Pierson     (1M2AAAA)

[9:59] anonymous1 morphed into Tim Finin     (1M2AAAB)

[9:55] Andrea Westerinen: [ref. OscarCorcho's slide#5] +1 for starting from Excel. It is pretty easy     (1M2AAAC)

to write a converter from Excel data to RDF/OWL.     (1M2AAAD)

[9:59] Simon Spero: @AndreaWesterinen: new linked-csv activity underway at W3     (1M2AAAE)

[9:59] Amanda Vizedom: Starting from excel (as per Oscar's slide 5) is often done and can be very     (1M2AAAF)

useful, BUT things go awry when people forget that semantics are not explicit or enforced in entry.     (1M2AAAG)

For example, I've seen folks send a group of domain experts off to build an initial concept capture     (1M2AAAH)

using an excel template. The results vary widely in how different groups interpret the semantics of     (1M2AAAI)

the template, and there isn't anything in excel-as-development-environment to help. Working *with*     (1M2AAAJ)

an ontologist, it's not so bad, as that person can be on the lookout for semantic drift.     (1M2AAAK)

[10:01] Andrea Westerinen: @AmandaVizedom [9:59] +1 regarding completeness and consistency, but the     (1M2AAAL)

Excel is a start, not the end. That is why I have converted to RDF/OWL and then continued from there.     (1M2AAAM)

[10:04] Amanda Vizedom: @AndreaWesterinen [10:01] -- agree. The real messes I've seen result not from     (1M2AAAN)

using excel early, but from thinking that because SMEs know how to use it, they can use it to     (1M2AAAO)

document their concepts in an ontology-friendly or conversion-friendly way, without help.     (1M2AAAP)

specifically designed to work with non Ontology-savvy audience.     (1M2AAAR)

[10:00] anonymous1 morphed into Carol Bean     (1M2AAAS)

[9:59] Krzysztof Janowicz: [ref. OscarCorcho's slide#7] +1 on late reuse     (1M2AAAT)

[10:01] Amanda Vizedom: +1 on postponing reuse until after first capture. Same with in-depth     (1M2AAAU)

specification of out-of-domain concepts (time, for example). Placeholders that get replaced or     (1M2AAAV)

aligned later will let the conversation continue *within* the experts' normal cognitive space.     (1M2AAAW)

[10:03] Simon Spero: There's a step to create between competency questions and user stories     (1M2AAAX)

[10:04] Dhaval Thakker: [re. OscarCorcho's slide#11] obvious question is why *five* :-)     (1M2AAAY)

[10:08] Simon Spero: @DhavalThakker:     (1M2AAAZ)

[10:06] anonymous1 morphed into Joanne Luciano     (1M2AAAAC)

[10:05] Simon Spero: create competency questions from user stories (as an instrument designer I want     (1M2AAAAD)

to be able to be able to represent calibration data     (1M2AAAAE)

[10:08] Dhaval Thakker: [re. OscarCorcho's slide#13] "Rec6: Just work with text patterns, and guide     (1M2AAAAF)

them to write good term definitions" - Agree. Can this be Controlled Natural Language (CNL)?     (1M2AAAAG)

[10:10] Simon Spero: If it loads into protege it loaded into protege     (1M2AAAAI)

[10:14] Andrea Westerinen: @SimonSpero [10:10] I have found ACE to be way too controlled and     (1M2AAAAJ)

requiring obvious info to be useful for normal people.     (1M2AAAAK)

[10:20] Simon Spero: @Andrea: yes and no :) Using a more ambiguous grammar, with semantic     (1M2AAAAL)

disambiguation would be better for most, but editor support made a big difference     (1M2AAAAM)

[10:21] Simon Spero: (For entry. Comprehension was good).     (1M2AAAAN)

[10:22] Andrea Westerinen: @SimonSpero [10:20] Agree. Editor support could make a huge difference.     (1M2AAAAO)

Also need reverse verbalization support.     (1M2AAAAP)

[10:22] Simon Spero: If only there was a common sense knowledge base to start from -     (1M2AAAAQ)

[10:25] Andrea Westerinen: @SimonSpero [10:22] Thanks. Will check it out.     (1M2AAAAS)

[10:11] Dhaval Thakker: @SimonSpero yes, ACE. But ROO is better (     (1M2AAAAT)

[10:18] Amanda Vizedom: @DhavalThakker [10:11] Checking out ROO. Thanks for tip. [Note that end     (1M2AAAAV)

punctuation got taken up into link in your comment]     (1M2AAAAW)

[10:11] Amanda Vizedom: Regarding use of text patterns: Multiple projects over many years now have     (1M2AAAAX)

also found a sweet spot in form-based or diagram-based entry tools that are customized by an     (1M2AAAAY)

ontologist, for particular sets of SMEs & elicitation cases, and generate the formal ontology under     (1M2AAAAZ)

the hood without showing it to the SMEs. This can be less lossy,     (1M2AAAAAA)

[10:12] Simon Spero: Owlapi fixes a lot of broken stuff behind the curtain. Working to make these     (1M2AAAAAB)

fixes more noisy in version4     (1M2AAAAAC)

[10:13] Matthew West: On reuse, you need to establish your requirements first. Otherwise you do not     (1M2AAAAAD)

know if reuse is appropriate.     (1M2AAAAAE)

[10:16] Joanne Luciano: cute smiley face (the slide layout)     (1M2AAAAAG)

[10:24] Amanda Vizedom: Aside regarding DhavalThakker's slide 6: I think that similar work will be     (1M2AAAAAH)

useful at the scale of culture and communications within communities of practice and organizations     (1M2AAAAAI)

as well. This is based on my experiences with large, cross-community, cross-domain projects, in     (1M2AAAAAJ)

which these variations are quite apparent and must be handled somehow. "Same" community becomes     (1M2AAAAAK)

culturally different community over time, as well.     (1M2AAAAAL)

[10:29] anonymous1 morphed into Uri Shani     (1M2AAAAAM)

[10:33] ... Uri Shani: when did this started?     (1M2AAAAAN)

[10:33] ... Matthew West: An hour ago. Daylight savings has come in in the US.     (1M2AAAAAO)

[10:34] Amanda Vizedom: re @DhavalThakker's slide 15 -- nice, clean example of one way an ontology     (1M2AAAAAP)

can be fine in principle but not fit for purpose, in a way that potential users would want to know.     (1M2AAAAAQ)

In a way this about levels of abstraction, also granularity. I'm thinking about this from     (1M2AAAAAR)

perspective of upcoming hackathon project to model characteristics of ontologies that are relevant     (1M2AAAAAS)

to fitness evaluation. Wondering whether it might work (well enough?) to specify "grains" in various     (1M2AAAAAT)

ways. Not looking for answer here, but I hope others who think this is interesting might join the hackathon. :-)     (1M2AAAAAU)

[10:35] GaryBergCross: Nice example of semantic content reuse in DBPedia.     (1M2AAAAAV)

[10:36] Matthew West: And seeking to automate annotation is a good approach to overcoming bottlenecks.     (1M2AAAAAW)

[10:38] Joanne Luciano: OMICS. 2008 Jun;12(2):129-36. doi: 10.1089/omi.2008.0016. Habitat-Lite: a GSC     (1M2AAAAAY)

case study based on free text terms for environmental metadata. Hirschman L1, Clark C, Cohen KB, Mardis S,     (1M2AAAAAZ)

Luciano J, Kottmann R, Cole J, Markowitz V, Kyrpides N, Morrison N, Schriml LM, Field D; Novo Project.     (1M2AAAAAAA)

[10:39] Joanne Luciano: Estimate that the terms in the initial version of Habitat-Lite would provide     (1M2AAAAAAB)

useful labels for over 60% of the kinds of information found in the GenBank isolation_source field,     (1M2AAAAAAC)

and around 85% of the terms in the GOLD habitat field.     (1M2AAAAAAD)

[10:40] Joanne Luciano: my comment is more technical (and abstract) with respect not to culture but     (1M2AAAAAAE)

to how the ontology is being developed and more the evaluation.     (1M2AAAAAAF)

[10:40] Peter P. Yim: == Johannes Trame presenting on behalf of Peter Haase ...     (1M2AAAAAAG)

[10:48] ... Peter P. Yim: [ JohannesTrame's voice line dropped at 10:46; after calling back in -     (1M2AAAAAAI)

resumption of JohannesTrame's presentation - slide#3 "platform layer"]     (1M2AAAAAAJ)

[11:04] anonymous1 morphed into Maria Herrero     (1M2AAAAAAK)

[11:05] GaryBergCross: Thanks for a good slide on Reuse that Track A can leverage!     (1M2AAAAAAL)

[11:05] Michael Grüninger: @JohannesTrame: what are some of the specific ontologies that you have     (1M2AAAAAAM)

designed within this framework? How have you reused these ontologies across clients?     (1M2AAAAAAN)

[11:06] Oscar Corcho: [JohannesTrame-PeterHaase: slide 18] In my opinion, we should not forget that     (1M2AAAAAAO)

it is not only about reusing other ontologies, but also allowing that the one that you create can be     (1M2AAAAAAP)

reused (e.g., in my examples, across the open data portals community in Spain)     (1M2AAAAAAQ)

[11:07] GaryBergCross: "Software engineers tend to have preference for 'theirown' solutions" This     (1M2AAAAAAR)

generalizes way beyond SWE or data engineers or engineers as a whole. It more or less true of most of us.     (1M2AAAAAAS)

[11:08] Mike Bennett: @JohannesTrame-PeterHaase on slide 19 re-use of ontologies: given these are     (1M2AAAAAAT)

from industry verticals, what experiences do you have in common abstractions between these     (1M2AAAAAAU)

ontologies e.g. if music ontology and conference ontology may have concepts in common?     (1M2AAAAAAV)

[11:09] Peter P. Yim: == Q & A and Open Discussion ...     (1M2AAAAAAW)

[10:47] Leo Obrst: RE: controlled natural language: in addition to the usual suspects, Ed Barkmeyer of     (1M2AAAAAAX)

NIST and Fabian Neuhaus (when he was at NIST) were working on a controlled language on top of Common     (1M2AAAAAAY)

Logic (and a CL reasoner). I don't know the final state of their effort.     (1M2AAAAAAZ)

[11:07] Simon Spero: @LeoObrst: [10:47] Published version of TobiasKuhn's survey of CNL is finally     (1M2AAAAAAAA)

[11:10] Simon Spero: @LeoObrst: Final report on NIST effort (RECON) is at     (1M2AAAAAAAC)

[11:16] Leo Obrst: @SimonSpero: Thanks!     (1M2AAAAAAAE)

[11:11] Amanda Vizedom: [re. KrzysztofJanowicz's verbal question for OscarCorcho's slide#14]     (1M2AAAAAAAF)

Regarding the domain & range disuse view: I have run into this occasionally, and think it is bad     (1M2AAAAAAAG)

practice and is based on a misdiagnosis...     (1M2AAAAAAAH)

[11:11] Krzysztof Janowicz: yes, instead of local scopes     (1M2AAAAAAAI)

[11:12] Matthew West: @AmandaVizedom [11:11] I agree. The underlying problem is that the domain and     (1M2AAAAAAAJ)

range are set more restrictively than is really the case.     (1M2AAAAAAAK)

[11:12] Oscar Corcho: @AmandaVizedom: I agree     (1M2AAAAAAAL)

[11:14] Krzysztof Janowicz: very good example     (1M2AAAAAAAM)

[11:15] Mike Bennett: Summarizing @AmandaVizedom: sometimes a property is asserted at too detailed a     (1M2AAAAAAAN)

level, but the opposite practice of removing domain and range altogether is also a bad practice.     (1M2AAAAAAAO)

[11:15] Joanne Luciano: To add to Amanda's comment, about including domain and range, I agree. It's     (1M2AAAAAAAP)

nice too when documentation is included in the ontology (in the definition / comment)     (1M2AAAAAAAQ)

[11:06] Matthew West: [re. JohannesTrame-PeterHaase slide 18] We need to remember that reuse is not     (1M2AAAAAAAR)

an end in itself, but a possible means of delivering a solution quicker and cheaper.     (1M2AAAAAAAS)

[11:11] GaryBergCross: @MatthewWest On this issue of reuse, it is not an end in itself, but IF there     (1M2AAAAAAAT)

are good things to leverage it would help get towards standardization. In addition if one finds that     (1M2AAAAAAAU)

something is not reusable, stating the defects helps the field.     (1M2AAAAAAAV)

[11:15] Matthew West: @GaryBergCross [11:11]: Quite. Reuse can reduce the cost because you do not     (1M2AAAAAAAW)

have to redevelop. It can also help increase quality, reuse tends to get rid of bugs. Finally, if     (1M2AAAAAAAX)

you have integration requirements across applications, then using the same ontology for both will     (1M2AAAAAAAY)

reduce the costs of interfacing. These are all however ends, which reuse alone is not.     (1M2AAAAAAAZ)

[11:15] GaryBergCross: Ideas like domain and range are seductive since they seem to have a good     (1M2AAAAAAAAA)

cost-benefit ratio. Little effort to get what seems like an extension to the model.     (1M2AAAAAAAAB)

[11:16] Amanda Vizedom: It is recommended as a supposed fix for the frequent occurance of properties     (1M2AAAAAAAAC)

that are not represented at a correct and consistent level of generality. It is sometimes as simple     (1M2AAAAAAAAD)

as the name of the property being too general (e.g."controls" instead of "controllsFinancially").     (1M2AAAAAAAAE)

Sometimes it is more complicated...     (1M2AAAAAAAAF)

[11:17] GaryBergCross: @Mathew. Yes, good reuse affords some ends such as quality and is a means to     (1M2AAAAAAAAG)

these, but not a end in itself.     (1M2AAAAAAAAH)

[11:17] Krzysztof Janowicz: @GaryBergCross: I agree. Especially when it comes to patterns careless (too     (1M2AAAAAAAAI)

restrictive) use of global domain and range is dangerous. thus, I prefer local domain and range definitions.     (1M2AAAAAAAAJ)

[11:17] GaryBergCross: On domain and range, one might ask what are these for the Competency Questions.     (1M2AAAAAAAAK)

[11:18] Amanda Vizedom: ... An appropriate correction, at minimum, is to apply a bit of discipline in     (1M2AAAAAAAAM)

identifying what is the specificity of the property intended, naming and labeling it in a way that     (1M2AAAAAAAAN)

reflects that and setting a domain and range appropriately to that.     (1M2AAAAAAAAO)

[11:22] Amanda Vizedom: Going beyond that (my [11:18]), it is also good practice to evaluate whether     (1M2AAAAAAAAP)

you can define a narrow property that you need immediately as a subPropertyOf a general property     (1M2AAAAAAAAQ)

that already exists or that you can also create. This helps to define your specific property more     (1M2AAAAAAAAR)

clearly, as well as creating or connecting to reusable content.     (1M2AAAAAAAAS)

[11:18] Mike Bennett: My own view: given the intended meaning of a concept, it should surely set the     (1M2AAAAAAAAT)

domain (and maybe range) which corresponds to the meaning of the concept, e.g. a property that is     (1M2AAAAAAAAU)

explicitly about contracts should have a domain of Contract. But as @MatthewWest says this require     (1M2AAAAAAAAV)

imagination so that when you think about the meaning a property you think about all the things it     (1M2AAAAAAAAW)

can be a property of and all the kinds of thing it can be framed in terms of - creating a     (1M2AAAAAAAAX)

sub-property or a restriction as appropriate for the concept you were originally thinking of.     (1M2AAAAAAAAY)

[11:19] Michael Grüninger: I'm a little perplexed why domain/range constraints are so problematic.     (1M2AAAAAAAAZ)

They arise quite naturally from any UML class diagram ...     (1M2AAAAAAAAAA)

[11:21] Matthew West: @MichaelGruninger [11:19]: Yes, and these mistakes are routinely made in those     (1M2AAAAAAAAAB)

diagrams, with relationships being stated at a lower level of abstraction than is really true. For     (1M2AAAAAAAAAC)

example, an ontology for equipment, may say that one type of equipment must have another type of     (1M2AAAAAAAAAD)

equipment as a part, but there are other things than equipment for which this is true.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAE)

[11:21] Uri Shani: doman/range is better than using restrictions.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAF)

[11:21] Simon Spero: @MichaelGruninger: The problem is partly what they constrain (the models)     (1M2AAAAAAAAAG)

[11:22] Simon Spero: @MichaelGruninger: where those words are opposite of what most non-specialists think     (1M2AAAAAAAAAH)

[11:23] Mike Bennett: @MichaelGruninger in FIBO we started out with what's on the corresponding UML     (1M2AAAAAAAAAI)

class diagrams, and created a deep subsumption hierarchy of properties. This wasn't ideal for OWL     (1M2AAAAAAAAAJ)

usage since in many cases the multiple properties represented the same meaning with some changes to     (1M2AAAAAAAAAK)

range. THe balance we are trying to aim for is to have a separate property only when there is an     (1M2AAAAAAAAAL)

identifiably new meaning in play. However if I'm honest we haven't achieved that in the current     (1M2AAAAAAAAAM)

version (someone decided to promote loads of properties to have no domain or range!!)     (1M2AAAAAAAAAN)

[11:23] Leo Obrst: @AmandaVizedom [11:22]: actually, we use Events and States as classes, both for     (1M2AAAAAAAAAP)

NLP and other uses, and so will have a Stative like Possess, which is generic but has local property     (1M2AAAAAAAAAQ)

restrictions for generic thematic participants (doing the job of domains/ranges), then have more     (1M2AAAAAAAAAR)

specific events/states under these with more specialized property restrictions.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAS)

[11:23] Simon Spero: or vice versa     (1M2AAAAAAAAAT)

[11:24] Simon Spero: [user stories to competency stories     (1M2AAAAAAAAAU)

[11:24] Amanda Vizedom: @MichaelGruninger "[11:19] I'm a little perplexed why domain/range     (1M2AAAAAAAAAW)

constraints are so problematic" ... The problem is worst in OWL because people frequently     (1M2AAAAAAAAAX)

misunderstand the effect of domain and range there. I have only seen this disuse recommendation     (1M2AAAAAAAAAY)

there, perhaps because it is harder there (than in more expressive languages) to say what you mean     (1M2AAAAAAAAAZ)

to say about domain and range.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAA)

[11:26] Krzysztof Janowicz: @AmandaVizedom: yes because in OWL they have an inferential semantics and     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAB)

most non-DL conceptual modellers do not know that and think of them as constraints. This makes their     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAC)

usage difficult and often problematic     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAD)

[11:35] Amanda Vizedom: @KrzystofJanowicz [11:26], yes, the constraint vs type-inference consequences     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAE)

are a big source of confusion. IMHO it is exacerbated by the difficulty of creating the     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAF)

constraint-like d/r in OWL, versus other languages. In some languages, there are simply alternative     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAG)

properties to use depending on which type of assertion you mean to make (see schema:domainIncludes     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAH)

or Cycl arg constraints for example.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAI)

[11:35] Krzysztof Janowicz: @AmandaVizedom: yes, I agree     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAJ)

[11:36] Simon Spero: @amandaVizedom: There's also N-BOXes which are attempts to add NAF to OWL     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAK)

[11:26] Michael Grüninger: My point is that the discussion of domain/range is part of the ontological     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAM)

analysis phase of ontology design, but that it is not some new concept that is foreign to someone     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAN)

who knows UML class diagrams.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAO)

[11:27] Amanda Vizedom: See this G+ post from BernardVatant this morning, and the related comments     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAP)

(on domain range specification in LOV vocabularies)     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAQ)

[11:38] Krzysztof Janowicz: Thanks for sharing the link to BernardVatant's blog entry. I agree with his conclusions.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAS)

[11:28] Uri Shani: About domain/range and restrictions: you can conclude what is a range/domain from     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAT)

a restriction, but without at least saying what is the domain/range of a property, how can you relate     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAU)

concepts with one another? So I'd say that domain/range is a minimum to imply some structure on an ontolgy.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAV)

[11:30] ... GaryBergCross: Following all these interesting links is going to take the rest of my day :-)     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAX)

[11:30] ... Uri Shani: what day? it is night already!     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAY)

[11:30] ... Simon Spero: Uri Shani: restrictions on Thing or Nothing     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAZ)

[11:32] ... Simon Spero: Uri Shani: UTC+2, meet UTC-4     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAA)

[11:32] ... GaryBergCross: @Uri You have till "tomorrow"     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAB)

[11:33] ... Simon Spero: Uri Shani: (was easier when I working at Technion, as family who weren't in     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAD)

UK were in herzliya pituach or jerusalem :)     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAE)

[11:34] GaryBergCross: Culture is a suitable topic but we should expect small steps as you say. Do     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAF)

you leverage the D & S pattern?     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAG)

[11:34] Peter P. Yim: ... [DhavalThakker introduces the coordinator of the IMREAL Project] Vania Dimitrova     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAH)

who gave verbal remarks extending on some of the points Dhaval Thakker was making about "culture" and     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAI)

concedes that there are still a lot of open questions     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAJ)

[11:37] Dhaval Thakker: sorry we (DhavalThakker and VaniaDimitrova) got disconnected.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAK)

[11:35] Peter P. Yim: @ALL: as announced by our Symposium co-chairs, Professor Tim Finin and Dr. Ram     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAL)

Sriram yesterday, our Apr 28~29 Symposium (at NSF in Greater Washington DC) is now open for     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAM)

registration. Please register yourself ASAP, as capacity is limited - see:     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAN)

information about the availability (until Apr-4) of hotel reservation block (with preferred rates)     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAP)

has been posted!     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAQ)

[11:35] Peter P. Yim: @ALL: Please mark your calendars and reserve this time, every Thursday, for the     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAR)

Ontology Summit 2014 virtual panel session series. In particular ... Session-11 will be up next     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAS)

Thursday - Thu 2014.03.27 - Ontology Summit 2014: "Track D: Tackling the Variety Problem in Big Data -     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAT)

II" *** Again, please pay special attention to the start-time (9:30am PDT), as this week is still     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAU)

among the tricky ones, when N.America is in Summer time, Europe is still in Winter time, and lots of     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAV)

other regions don't do daylight saving time at all! *** - see developing details at:     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAW)

time-zones will be clearly posted there     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAY)

[11:35] Peter P. Yim: @org-comm members, Reminder to those in the organizing committee, our next meeting     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAZ)

(n.09) is coming up tomorrow - Fri 2014.03.21 - see:     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAAA)

[11:35] Leo Obrst: Thanks, all! Very good session.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAAD)

[11:35] Peter P. Yim: -- session ended: 11:32 am PDT --     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAAH)

-- end of in-session chat-transcript --     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAAI)

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