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Ontology Summit 2013: Panel Session-04 - Thu 2013-02-07     (1)

Summit Theme: "Ontology Evaluation Across the Ontology Lifecycle"     (1A)

Summit Track Title: Track-C: Building Ontologies to Meet Evaluation Criteria     (1B)

Session Topic: Ontology Development Methodologies for Integrating Ontologies     (1C)

Session Co-chairs: Dr. MatthewWest (Information Junction) and Mr. MikeBennett (EDM Council; Hypercube) - intro slides     (1D)

Panelists / Briefings:     (1E)

  • Professor BarrySmith (University at Buffalo, US) - "Ontological realism as a strategy for integrating ontologies" slides     (1F)
  • Mr. ChrisPartridge (BORO Solutions, UK) - "Ontology Architecture - Top Ontology Architecture" slides     (1G)
  • Mr. AnatolyLevenchuk ([[TechInvestLab]], RU) - "ISO 15926 Reference Data Engineering Methodology" slides     (1H)
  • Mr. MikeBennett (EDM Council; Hypercube, UK) - "Quality Considerations for an Industry Standard Ontology" slides     (1I)

Abstract     (1K)

OntologySummit2013 Session-04: "Ontology Development Methodologies for Integrating Ontologies" - intro slides     (1K1)

This is our 8th Ontology Summit, a joint initiative by NIST, Ontolog, NCOR, NCBO, IAOA & NCO_NITRD with the support of our co-sponsors. The theme adopted for this Ontology Summit is: "Ontology Evaluation Across the Ontology Lifecycle."     (1K2)

Currently, there is no agreed methodology for development of ontologies, and there are no universally agreed metrics for ontology evaluation. At the same time, everybody agrees that there are a lot of badly engineered ontologies out there, thus people use -- at least implicitly -- some criteria for the evaluation of ontologies.     (1K3)

During this Ontology Summit, we seek to identify best practices for ontology development and evaluation. We will consider the entire lifecycle of an ontology -- from requirements gathering and analysis, through to design and implementation. In this endeavor, the Summit will seek collaboration with the software engineering and knowledge acquisition communities. Research in these fields has led to several mature models for the software lifecycle and the design of knowledge-based systems, and we expect that fruitful interaction among all participants will lead to a consensus for a methodology within ontological engineering. Following earlier Ontology Summit practice, the synthesized results of this season's discourse will be published as a Communiqu��.     (1K4)

At the Launch Event on 17 Jan 2013, the organizing team provided an overview of the program, and how we will be framing the discourse around the theme of of this OntologySummit. Today's session is one of the events planned.     (1K5)

Focusing on what Track-C: "Building Ontologies to Meet Evaluation Criteria" addresses, one way to look at it is that Ontologies broadly come in two types:     (1K6)

  • 1. Those developed for integrating data from various sources.     (1K7)
  • 2. Those developed to support reasoning applications.     (1K8)

We will be having one session devoted to each of these types, to try to identify what is important for them separately, and then to compare and see what the differences and similarities are for methodologies of these two types on the email exploder.     (1K9)

In this 4th panel session of the Summit, and the first Track-C session today, we will look at methodologies for developing integrating ontologies and will aim to identify the range of things a methodology needs to address in order for it to continue to develop consistently when there are potentially a large and distributed number of people involved in its development.     (1K10)

More details about this Ontology Summit is available at: OntologySummit2013 (homepage for this summit)     (1K11)

Briefings     (1K12)

  • 'Professor BarrySmith (University at Buffalo, US) - "Ontological realism as a strategy for integrating ontologies" slides     (1K12A)
    • Abstract: ... Focusing primarily on the experiences of the OBO (Open Biomedical Ontologies) Foundry, I will explore the various ways in which ontology evaluation can be exploited as a tool for ontology integration. The underlying paradigm is one of scientific peer review: ontologies, like scientific journal articles, should be evaluated by experts in light of an evolving set of principles, which are outlined here: http://obofoundry.org/crit.shtml. These include not only general principles (such as adequacy to the relevant object domain), but also principles designed to ensure the sort of consistent and non-redundant development that is needed for integration.I will summarize the experiences of the OBO Foundry thus far, including some of the problems we have faced, and show how the Foundry methodology and results are being used also by ontology consortia outside biomedicine.     (1K12A1)
  • Mr. ChrisPartridge (BORO Solutions, UK) - "Ontology Architecture - Top Ontology Architecture" slides     (1K12B)
    • Abstract: I will describe how we can apply some of the lessons learnt in Enterprise / Systems / Software Architecture to managing large ontology developments based upon my experience with the development of BORO, IDEAS and MODEM. In a sense this is meta-methodology, in that it suggests what methodologies need to address with some roadmap examples, without stipulating how they do it. Larger ontology developments faces the same challenges that these architectures attempt to deal with - which are broadly speaking;     (1K12B1)
    • The kinds of solutions they bring to bear should influence the way we work with ontologies.     (1K12B2)
  • Mr. AnatolyLevenchuk ([[TechInvestLab]], RU) - "ISO 15926 Reference Data Engineering Methodology" slides     (1K12C)
    • Abstract: The "ISO 15926 Reference Data Engineering Methodology" describes the engineering of ontologies for systems federation purposes. "Situational Method Engineering" is a discipline for the description of development methodologies. This presentation will describe the practical experience of applying the Situational Method Engineering discipline to the creation of an ontology development methodology for the growing community of ISO 15926 reference data engineers.     (1K12C1)
  • Mr. MikeBennett (EDM Council; Hypercube, UK) - "Quality Considerations for an Industry Standard Ontology" slides     (1K12D)
    • Abstract: This presentation explores and sets out some of the quality considerations that might apply to the development of an industry standard ontology. Taking the Financial Industry Business Ontology (FIBO) as an example, the presenter will situate the development of the ontology within the formal systems development lifecycle before considering what kinds of measure might or might not apply to this kind of ontology, and what steps should be built into the development lifecycle to ensure these are carried out.     (1K12D1)

Agenda     (1L)

OntologySummit2013 - Panel Session-04     (1L1)

  • Session Format: this is a virtual session conducted over an augmented conference call     (1L2)

Proceedings     (1M)

Please refer to the above     (1M1)

IM Chat Transcript captured during the session    (1M2)

see raw transcript here.     (1M2A)

(for better clarity, the version below is a re-organized and lightly edited chat-transcript.)     (1M2B)

Participants are welcome to make light edits to their own contributions as they see fit.     (1M2C)

-- begin in-session chat-transcript --     (1M2D)

[08:37] Peter P. Yim: Welcome to the     (1M2E)

Ontology Summit 2013: Virtual Panel Session-04 - Thu 2013-02-07     (1M2F)

Summit Theme: Ontology Evaluation Across the Ontology Lifecycle     (1M2G)

  • Summit Track Title: Track-C: Building Ontologies to Meet Evaluation Criteria     (1M2H)

Session Topic: Ontology Development Methodologies for Integrating Ontologies     (1M2I)

Panelists / Briefings:     (1M2K)

  • Professor Barry Smith (University at Buffalo, US) - "Ontological realism as a strategy for integrating ontologies"     (1M2L)

Logistics:     (1M2P)

  • (if you haven't already done so) please click on "settings" (top center) and morph from "anonymous" to your RealName (in WikiWord format)     (1M2R)
    • for Linux Skype users: please note that the dial-pad is only available on v4.1 (or later or the earlier Skype versions 2.x,)     (1M2V1)

if the dialpad button is not shown in the call window you need to press the "d" hotkey to enable it.     (1M2W)

GaryBergCross, Hans Polzer, hevok, JaguaraciSilva, JeffersonBraswell, Joanne Luciano,     (1M2AA)

Proceedings:     (1M2AG)

[09:04] anonymous morphed into Joe     (1M2AH)

[09:14] anonymous morphed into Carmen Chui     (1M2AI)

[09:25] anonymous1 morphed into Torsten Hahmann     (1M2AJ)

[09:27] anonymous1 morphed into Robert Rovetto     (1M2AK)

[09:29] anonymous1 morphed into Rob Hausam     (1M2AL)

[09:30] anonymous1 morphed into Michael Riben     (1M2AM)

[09:30] anonymous1 morphed into Trish Whetzel     (1M2AN)

[09:31] anonymous1 morphed into Doug Foxvog     (1M2AO)

[09:31] anonymous morphed into Nikolay Borgest     (1M2AP)

[09:32] anonymous morphed into Mike Denny     (1M2AQ)

[09:32] Andrey Bayda morphed into AndreyBayda     (1M2AR)

[09:34] anonymous morphed into Dmitry Borisoglebsky     (1M2AS)

[09:34] anonymous1 morphed into Todd Schneider     (1M2AT)

[09:34] anonymous morphed into Barry Smith     (1M2AU)

[09:34] anonymous2 morphed into Hans Polzer     (1M2AV)

[09:34] anonymous morphed into Chris Partridge     (1M2AW)

[09:34] anonymous1 morphed into Joanne Luciano     (1M2AX)

[09:37] Peter P. Yim: == Matthew West opens the session on behalf of the co-chairs ... see: the [0-Chair]     (1M2AY)

[09:37] anonymous morphed into hevok     (1M2AAA)

[09:40] anonymous1 morphed into Lamar Henderson     (1M2AAB)

[09:41] anonymous morphed into JeffersonBraswell     (1M2AAC)

[09:43] List of members: Amanda Vizedom, Anatoly Levenchuk, AndreyBayda, Barry Smith, Bob Smith,     (1M2AAD)

[09:41] Peter P. Yim: == Barry Smith presenting ... see: the [1-Smith] slides     (1M2AAK)

[09:41] anonymous morphed into Trish Whetzel     (1M2AAL)

[09:46] Leo Obrst: Hi, folks, running late.     (1M2AAM)

[09:46] anonymous morphed into Dmitry     (1M2AAN)

[09:46] Bob Schloss: Barry Smith - for the future, your slide 4 meant to say XML but says XLM :-)     (1M2AAO)

[09:57] Peter P. Yim: @BobSchloss, @BarrySmith - I've updated the slides (and it says "XML" on Barry's     (1M2AAP)

slide#4 now) ... Thank you, Bob, for the prompt.     (1M2AAQ)

[09:49] Matthew West: [ref. BarrySmith's presentation showing multiple hits of obesity when that term     (1M2AAR)

is searched in BioPortal] Whose definition of obesity should everyone else use?     (1M2AAS)

[09:56] Hans Polzer: Another way to constrain ontology for purposes of integration is to be explicit     (1M2AAT)

about the specific ontology being used by the participating entities     (1M2AAU)

[09:58] Hans Polzer: I would suggest that explicitness is often better than "realism". Explicitness     (1M2AAV)

entails being explicit about the levels of realism in Barry's presentation     (1M2AAW)

[10:03] Barry Smith: Hans Polzer writes "Another way to constrain ontology for purposes of integration     (1M2AAX)

is to be explicit about the specific ontology being used by the participating entities" -- this     (1M2AAY)

would indeed have some positive effect, but it is not clear how it would serve to constrain; on the     (1M2AAZ)

contrary, it seems that it might well encourage further proliferation     (1M2AAAA)

[09:57] Amanda Vizedom: Assume for the moment that we could somehow enforce such uniform terminology,     (1M2AAAB)

despite the long history of failed attempts to do so. How, then, do you address the real cognitive     (1M2AAAC)

performance issues of forcing users (human reasoners, information consumers) into vocabulary and     (1M2AAAD)

information processes not native to their expert fields, not adapting and growing with local     (1M2AAAE)

dynamics? Cognitive Science says this will harm their performance, especially in high-stakes,     (1M2AAAF)

high-uncertainty, time-sensitive fields. How do you suggest mitigating this harm, and why is this     (1M2AAAG)

terminology-focus worth it?     (1M2AAAH)

[10:03] Barry Smith: Amanda Vizedom asks how the realist would address the real cognitive performance     (1M2AAAI)

issues of forcing users (human reasoners, information consumers) into vocabulary and information     (1M2AAAJ)

processes not native to their expert fields not adapting and growing with local dynamics? Cognitive     (1M2AAAK)

Science says this will harm their performance, especially in high-stakes, high-uncertainty,     (1M2AAAL)

time-sensitive fields. How do you suggest mitigating this harm, and why is this terminology-focus     (1M2AAAM)

[10:05] Barry Smith: Amanda Vizedom asks how the realist would address the real cognitive performance     (1M2AAAO)

issues of forcing users (human reasoners, information consumers) into vocabulary and information     (1M2AAAP)

processes not native to their expert fields not adapting and growing with local dynamics? The answer     (1M2AAAQ)

is that, from the realist perspective, a small fraction of people in any given field would be     (1M2AAAR)

involved in ontology development, and they would understand the need to use a common vocabulary. Not     (1M2AAAS)

every disciplinary subdialect needs to be represented in the ontology; that way chaos lies     (1M2AAAT)

[09:58] JoaoPauloAlmeida: What about if you want to describe social reality?     (1M2AAAU)

[09:59] JoaoPauloAlmeida: Not part of science text book     (1M2AAAV)

[10:01] Mike Bennett: @JoaoPauloAlmeida what about John Searle's ontology of social constructs? A     (1M2AAAW)

[10:04] JoaoPauloAlmeida: @MikeBennett All BFO usage examples are from biology, chemistry, ... I was     (1M2AAAY)

wondering whether Barry thinks it can be applied to social domains.     (1M2AAAZ)

[10:01] JoaoPauloAlmeida: Will that not require a revision of BFO to include "doctrine", ... norms,     (1M2AAAAA)

agents, etc.?     (1M2AAAAB)

[10:06] Barry Smith: JoaoPauloAlmeida asks whether BFO usage can be applied to social domains. We are     (1M2AAAAC)

[10:02] Hans Polzer: social reality is grounded in near term or current social opinion within a     (1M2AAAAF)

scoped population. Be explicit about the scope of that population and you can obtain social reality     (1M2AAAAG)

by polling that population subset.     (1M2AAAAH)

[09:59] Hans Polzer: Appeals to authority or standardization to promote integration have limited     (1M2AAAAI)

scalability in scope.     (1M2AAAAJ)

[10:00] Peter P. Yim: @Barry - is there a plan/timeline to get all ontologies in the OBO Foundry to be     (1M2AAAAK)

BFO "compliant" (if they aren't already)?     (1M2AAAAL)

[10:01] Todd Schneider: Have to go.     (1M2AAAAM)

[10:01] Amanda Vizedom: @BarrySmith: You slide between talk of "common ontology" and talk of     (1M2AAAAN)

controlled terminology. Why? Why not map multiple terminologies (including multilingual) to common     (1M2AAAAO)

ontology and use localization and user modeling techniques?     (1M2AAAAP)

[10:03] Doug Foxvog: @Amanda: +1     (1M2AAAAQ)

[09:58] Peter P. Yim: == Chris Partridge presenting ... see: the [2-Partridge] slides     (1M2AAAAR)

[10:02] anonymous1 morphed into Lowell Vizenor     (1M2AAAAS)

[10:04] Hans Polzer: Re Chris's talk, a look at the NCOIC SCOPE model might be of interest regarding     (1M2AAAAT)

the relationship between different scales of projects/systems/enterprises and architecture.     (1M2AAAAU)

[10:06] JoaoPauloAlmeida: There is a more general definition of architecture that is used by IEEE     (1M2AAAAV)

(1471-2000): The fundamental organization of a system, embodied in its components, their     (1M2AAAAW)

relationships to each other and the environment, and the principles governing its design and     (1M2AAAAX)

[10:06] Mike Bennett: @JoaoPauloAlmeida good question. In FIBO we make reference to JohnSowa's KR     (1M2AAAAZ)

Lattice which has similar upper ontology partitions, and have added Social Constructs, but I almost     (1M2AAAAAA)

wonder if they should be a partition in their own right.     (1M2AAAAAB)

[10:07] Peter P. Yim: @Joe, @hevok, @Dmitry, @anonymous - kindly morph into your real name (click on the     (1M2AAAAAC)

settings button at the top center of the window to do so) so we all know who's here and properly     (1M2AAAAAD)

attribute contributions ... thanks.     (1M2AAAAAE)

[10:07] Hans Polzer: Shared understanding and "common" ontology raise the issue of what that     (1M2AAAAAF)

understanding is shared across and what the ontology is common to. Commonality and sharing imply a     (1M2AAAAAG)

scope across which things are shared or common. We need a way to define and share that scope among     (1M2AAAAAH)

the participants that are sharing or using a common artifact.     (1M2AAAAAI)

[10:08] GaryBergCross: Generative Entrenchment sounds similar to ideas around contingency.     (1M2AAAAAJ)

[10:10] Hans Polzer: Managing a project isn't just about managing interdependence of the parts -     (1M2AAAAAK)

although very important, but also managing the relationship of the project/enterprise with the     (1M2AAAAAL)

larger ecosystem. Often this latter aspect is assumed and assumed to be static - which it rarely     (1M2AAAAAM)

[10:14] Hans Polzer: I would add to the Pierce quote that people also have a context assumption and     (1M2AAAAAO)

an assumption concerning the scope of that context.     (1M2AAAAAP)

[10:15] Hans Polzer: This is the source of silos, by the way     (1M2AAAAAQ)

[10:18] Hans Polzer: It would be helpful if people on projects were asked to explicitly identify     (1M2AAAAAR)

adjacent domains and interacting external projects/systems/enterprises/contexts that their     (1M2AAAAAS)

creation will need to interact with. In other words, explicitly consider the ecosystem within which     (1M2AAAAAT)

they operate     (1M2AAAAAU)

[10:21] Barry Smith: To HansPolzer's remark -- that people identify neighboring domains and build     (1M2AAAAAV)

ontologies in such a way as to be consistent with neighboring ontologies -- this is one of the     (1M2AAAAAW)

principles of the OBO Foundry: http://obofoundry.org     (1M2AAAAAX)

[10:21] Mike Bennett: @Hans good point. A related point is to what extent you define abstractions in     (1M2AAAAAY)

a given domain ontology, such that terms in an adjacent subject matter may be specializations of     (1M2AAAAAZ)

those same abstractions. This makes no sense in the application domain but helps with common     (1M2AAAAAAA)

[10:26] Chris Partridge: @HansPolzer - Yes I agree that one needs to look at the larger ecosystem.     (1M2AAAAAAC)

However, I think you need to differentiate between the ontology as artefact and its ecosystem - and     (1M2AAAAAAD)

the ontology as the 'reality' being described and its ecosystem. They are usually different,     (1M2AAAAAAE)

sometimes very different.     (1M2AAAAAAF)

[10:28] Hans Polzer: Chris, agree that these are best managed separately - but linked     (1M2AAAAAAG)

[10:31] Hans Polzer: Chris, this is also similar to the "different path" effect you referenced in     (1M2AAAAAAH)

your talk. If you look more explicitly at the ecosystem and its dynamic trajectory you may end up     (1M2AAAAAAI)

with a different solution than if you just look at the problem that the ontology is addressing with     (1M2AAAAAAJ)

only implicit context assumptions.     (1M2AAAAAAK)

[10:29] JaguaraciSilva: how can we define the difference among artifacts and ontologies if the     (1M2AAAAAAL)

proper ontology can be an artefact within a ecosystem?     (1M2AAAAAAM)

[10:35] Hans Polzer: Jaguariaci, ontologies are both artifacts and used to describe/represent     (1M2AAAAAAN)

artifacts. We don't have an ontology of ecosystems and their scope, but we should. Then you could     (1M2AAAAAAO)

specify the scope of the ontology and the ecosystem assumptions of that ontology. The NCOIC SCOPE     (1M2AAAAAAP)

model is not an ontology, but it is an effort to provide a descriptive framework for characterizing     (1M2AAAAAAQ)

scope of an artifact/institution/system/ecosystem     (1M2AAAAAAR)

[10:38] JaguaraciSilva: @Hans, thanks!. it means a "architecture view" in an well defined context.     (1M2AAAAAAS)

[10:16] anonymous1 morphed into DeborahMacPherson     (1M2AAAAAAT)

[10:17] anonymous1 morphed into JaguaraciSilva     (1M2AAAAAAU)

[10:20] Michael Grüninger: @ChrisPartridge: Can you identify an upper ontology for each of the     (1M2AAAAAAV)

choices on slide 11? Additionally, have you evaluated existing upper ontologies with respect to the     (1M2AAAAAAW)

meta-ontological choices?     (1M2AAAAAAX)

[10:31] Chris Partridge: @MichaelGruninger Hi Mike. I'm not sure one can have an ontology component     (1M2AAAAAAY)

for each of the choices, as they are tightly coupled. One can take a top ontology and classify which     (1M2AAAAAAZ)

of the choices it has made - and see the outcome. My focus has been on the choices that have been     (1M2AAAAAAAA)

made in the top ontologies I have worked on - and the results of the choices. However, I have     (1M2AAAAAAAB)

commented on SUMO, DOLCE and BFO as I have been exposed to them. My proposal is that the developers     (1M2AAAAAAAC)

of top ontologies should classify them - if not by the choices I propose then by some of their own     (1M2AAAAAAAD)

making - and provide arguments for their choices.     (1M2AAAAAAAE)

[10:46] Robert Rovetto: @ChrisPartridge When you say "top ontologies should classify them", what is     (1M2AAAAAAAF)

them referring to? The choices made?     (1M2AAAAAAAG)

[10:52] Matthew West: @RobertRovetto: Yes, he means classify them by the ontological commitments made     (1M2AAAAAAAH)

as e.g. listed on one of his slides.     (1M2AAAAAAAI)

[10:24] Peter P. Yim: == Anatoly Levenchuk presenting ... see: the [3-Levenchuk] slides     (1M2AAAAAAAJ)

[10:28] DaliaVaranka1 morphed into Dalia Varanka     (1M2AAAAAAAK)

[10:37] anonymous1 morphed into Simon Spero     (1M2AAAAAAAL)

[10:39] Amanda Vizedom: @AnatolyLevenchuk: Can you explain what you mean by "same domain" (on your     (1M2AAAAAAAM)

[11:00] Anatoly Levenchuk: @AmandaVizedom: when we engineer formal symbolic system as artifact that     (1M2AAAAAAAO)

represent something in real world, it is the same activity. Especially if you compare declarative     (1M2AAAAAAAP)

programming with programming, modeling with programming (Simula 68 is a memory about times when     (1M2AAAAAAAQ)

programming and modeling was the same), ontologizing and data modeling, etc., you see multiple     (1M2AAAAAAAR)

generalities in essence of this activities but completely different terminology, conferences and     (1M2AAAAAAAS)

even theory. Now it slowly converges (e.g. Domain-Driven Design in programming is close to     (1M2AAAAAAAT)

ontologising, Model-Driven Programming is part of software engineering now, etc.).     (1M2AAAAAAAU)

[11:31] Amanda Vizedom: @Anatoly, thanks for your answer.     (1M2AAAAAAAV)

[10:41] Hans Polzer: Ref Anatoly's talk, the programming, ontology, and modeling are not the same     (1M2AAAAAAAW)

domain. They are overlapping domains that share many scope dimensions, but differ from each other in     (1M2AAAAAAAX)

specific other scope dimensions (like what they model/represent). It helps to be specific/explicit     (1M2AAAAAAAY)

about along what dimensions they differ so that we can better identify their commonality and the     (1M2AAAAAAAZ)

process elements that are appropriate to them and which process elements need to differ and how.     (1M2AAAAAAAAA)

[10:55] JaguaraciSilva: by conceptual modeling the view programming, ontology and modeling aren't in     (1M2AAAAAAAAB)

the same domain, but if there's another need what characterizes a [system architecture by example]     (1M2AAAAAAAAC)

it can result on unique view, what depends on such concerns.     (1M2AAAAAAAAD)

[11:06] Anatoly Levenchuk: @HansPolzer: if you want to see differences, you definitely will find     (1M2AAAAAAAAE)

them. I want to see commonality to heavy reuse achievements of this professional silos, then I find     (1M2AAAAAAAAF)

that all these domain not so distinct in essence of their intent: to engineer an executable     (1M2AAAAAAAAG)

(interpretable) formal systems that reflect real world systems.     (1M2AAAAAAAAH)

[11:09] Hans Polzer: Anatoly, my point is that if you want commonality, that commonality has to deal     (1M2AAAAAAAAI)

with the differences across which you want commonality. Trying to force fit commonality in places     (1M2AAAAAAAAJ)

where there are essential differences (as seen by the domain stakeholders and their purposes)     (1M2AAAAAAAAK)

results in empty standards, i.e., ones that aren't followed.     (1M2AAAAAAAAL)

[11:15] Anatoly Levenchuk: @Hans: if I tell that tigers and lions are mammals, that is not I will     (1M2AAAAAAAAM)

miss striped skin of a tiger and attribute it to lion. But I will feed them with milk early in their     (1M2AAAAAAAAN)

life cycle and with meat later. This is my approach for programming, ontologizing, modeling.     (1M2AAAAAAAAO)

[11:21] Hans Polzer: Anatoly - I understand what you were trying to communicate - I was just pointing     (1M2AAAAAAAAP)

out that we have different names for these domains for a reason. In many contexts, these domains may     (1M2AAAAAAAAQ)

well be indistinguishable - but be sure that they are when you are applying a process or ontology     (1M2AAAAAAAAR)

standard to them in that context.     (1M2AAAAAAAAS)

[11:04] JaguaraciSilva: @AnatolyLevenchuk do you know some studies with domain-driven design? I've     (1M2AAAAAAAAT)

used MDA (Model Driven Architecture) approaches on last years.     (1M2AAAAAAAAU)

[11:10] Anatoly Levenchuk: @Jaguaraci: 30 years ago we discuss domain-driven design as "if you not     (1M2AAAAAAAAV)

knowing what exactly should do your system, better use bottom up process and build library that     (1M2AAAAAAAAW)

reflect your project". Now this is DDD (Domain-Driven Design). Yes, I regularly read about DDD and     (1M2AAAAAAAAX)

actively use it. MDA is about different thing (but you can use both).     (1M2AAAAAAAAY)

[10:48] Peter P. Yim: == Mike Bennett presenting ... see: the [4-Bennett] slides     (1M2AAAAAAAAZ)

[10:52] anonymous1 morphed into Simon Spero     (1M2AAAAAAAAAA)

[10:58] Hans Polzer: Ref Mike's talk: good point on no right answer for genius versus methodology     (1M2AAAAAAAAAB)

balance. That's where context and scope come in     (1M2AAAAAAAAAC)

[11:00] Amanda Vizedom: @MikeBennett: Genius-Methodology Balance is an interesting suggestion. I     (1M2AAAAAAAAAD)

wonder, though, whether there is some choice as to whether this is treated as zero or positive sum.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAE)

As I think over the places I've worked, those couple that had the highest concentration of really     (1M2AAAAAAAAAF)

brilliant people *also* paid the most attention to methodology and related areas such as training     (1M2AAAAAAAAAG)

and testing. This did, however, require additional investment in really brilliant people to lead and     (1M2AAAAAAAAAH)

coordinate those latter activities!     (1M2AAAAAAAAAI)

[11:03] anonymous1 morphed into MaksK     (1M2AAAAAAAAAJ)

[11:04] Peter P. Yim: @MaksK - would you be kind enough to morph into your real name, please     (1M2AAAAAAAAAK)

[11:08] Amanda Vizedom: @MikeBennett: regarding "the Bonus" (your slide 12): Another, potentially     (1M2AAAAAAAAAL)

major bonus is "implementability" of the standard itself -- that is, the usability of the standard     (1M2AAAAAAAAAM)

in compliance monitoring. Have you seen work in this direction with FIBO?     (1M2AAAAAAAAAN)

[11:11] Simon Spero: @MikeBennett: A lot of common things that you have to use restriction classes     (1M2AAAAAAAAAO)

for are easily expressed using things like controlled natural language. e.g. Everything that a     (1M2AAAAAAAAAP)

carnivore eats is an animal.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAQ)

[11:13] Terry Longstreth: @Simon: And CNL (controlled natural language) can express ambiguity (where     (1M2AAAAAAAAAR)

resolving ambiguity is an implementation detail); e.g. Almost Everything that a carnivore eats is an animal.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAS)

[11:14] Simon Spero: @TerryLongstreth: Most is a nasty nasty quantifier :-)     (1M2AAAAAAAAAT)

[11:11] Doug Foxvog: @MikeBennett: A requirement for a *LANGUAGE* to be DL-safe seems to be     (1M2AAAAAAAAAU)

self-defeating. Businesses regularly use programming languages (!) none of which are DL-safe. The     (1M2AAAAAAAAAV)

issue always is *HOW* the language is used. Restricting the power of the language is not, imho, an     (1M2AAAAAAAAAW)

appropriate answer.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAX)

[11:13] Simon Spero: @MikeBennett: I usually have to check with Attempto to see what it was I just said.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAY)

[11:15] Hans Polzer: @MikeBennett, ref slide 15 - need to be explicit about scope/context of the     (1M2AAAAAAAAAZ)

business domain at issue, as well as any other domains the selected domain needs to interact with     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAA)

and to what extent it needs to do so     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAB)

[11:18] Peter P. Yim: == Q&A and Open Discussion ...     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAC)

[11:18] Amanda Vizedom: Question for All Panelists: As you understand & practice it, what role(s)     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAD)

does ontology evaluation play in development methodology.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAE)

[11:20] Amanda Vizedom: (and, to the extent that there are multiple answers, what types of evaluation     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAF)

play those roles)?     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAG)

[11:21] Joanne Luciano: And adding to Amanda's question, I am wondering what thoughts have been given     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAH)

to incremental development and modularization of ontology development and evaluation     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAI)

[11:23] Leo Obrst: @Joanne: yes, modularity issues are very important! Enables relatively     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAJ)

independent, parallel ontology development.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAK)

[11:30] Joanne Luciano: @LeoObrst --that's the idea...     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAL)

[11:30] Mike Bennett: Modularity has been an important consideration in the development of FIBO.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAM)

Partly this is so that one can take a specific sub-set of those ontologies, either as application-ready     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAN)

ontologies (ambitious!) or as the basis from which to then derive the operational ontology.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAO)

[11:32] Joanne Luciano: @MikeBennett -- good.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAP)

[11:32] Chris Partridge: @Leo - I have concerns about this idea. On the one hand it is good, but on     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAQ)

the other hand complex (i.e. functionally rich) systems are normally tightly coupled. I have a     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAR)

feeling that this desire for modularity could be a kind of self-hard - deliberately dumbing down the system.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAS)

[11:34] Leo Obrst: @Chris: yes, there are serious issues. You must do an analysis (top-down)     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAT)

initially to characterize the modules and their dependencies.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAU)

[11:35] Leo Obrst: @Chris: more later on this topic!     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAV)

[11:34] Joanne Luciano: We haven't talked much about the relationship of OWL and RDF...     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAW)

[11:34] Joanne Luciano: and multiple ontologies over the same domain     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAX)

[11:34] Joanne Luciano: (another time!)     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAY)

[11:23] Simon Spero: Further to AmandaVizedom's question: in agile methods, continuous tests are     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAZ)

generally considered critical (Unit -> Integration -> Behavior).     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAA)

[11:23] Simon Spero: Can there be Onto-Unit (without Application)     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAB)

[11:25] Hans Polzer: Continuous evaluation throughout development might be practical for evaluating     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAC)

attributes that can be analyzed via automated methods, but unlikely to be practical if it requires     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAD)

lots of human stakeholders and expertise and time. A more phased approach is probably more pragmatic     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAE)

in most contexts, with maybe some intrinsic attributes evaluated more frequently during the     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAF)

development process     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAG)

[11:28] JaguaraciSilva: @Hans: continuous evaluation can using a continuous integration environment     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAH)

such as Hudson, TFS, etc..     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAI)

[11:29] Hans Polzer: @Jaguaraci: Yes     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAJ)

[11:26] Steve Ray: [ref. ChrisPartridge's verbal remarks about "mentoring is more important" -     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAK)

citing: "give people some food and they will be starving tomorrow; give them a line and a hook, and     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAL)

they will be able to eat for the rest of their lives"] That was Lord Kelvin who said that.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAM)

[11:27] Chris Partridge: @Steve - Yup, thanks. I've had a long day.     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAN)

[11:28] Amanda Vizedom: [ref. verbal remarks] Thanks for your answers, @Chris and @Mike!     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAO)

[11:30] Matthew West: @Barry - *7 to unmute     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAP)

[11:30] Chris Partridge: @Barry - is there a BarrySmith2 - if so, is this a good thing?     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAQ)

[11:31] Peter P. Yim: @Matthew & Fabian - Barry *is* on the voice line now [... BarrySmith's verbal     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAR)

remarks followed.]     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAS)

[11:34] Peter P. Yim: great session!     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAT)

[11:34] Leo Obrst: Thanks, all!     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAU)

[11:34] Peter P. Yim: join us again, same time next week, for Ontology Summit 2013 session-05: "Software     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAV)

Environments for Evaluating Ontologies - I " - Co-chairs: Michael Denny (MITRE) & Peter P. Yim (Ontolog;     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAW)

[11:35] Peter P. Yim: -- session ended: 11:34 am PST --     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAY)

-- end of in-session chat-transcript --     (1M2AAAAAAAAAAAZ)

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