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Ontology Summit 2010 (Pre-launch) Community Input and Planning Session - Thu 2009-11-05     (1)

  • Agenda: This is a (pre-launch) communitywide brainstorming and planning session for OntologySummit2010.     (1C)

  • Shared-screen support (VNC session), if applicable, will be started 5 minutes before the call at: http://vnc2.cim3.net:5800/     (1E5)
    • view-only password: "ontolog"     (1E5A)
    • if you plan to be logging into this shared-screen option (which the speaker may be navigating), and you are not familiar with the process, please try to call in 5 minutes before the start of the session so that we can work out the connection logistics. Help on this will generally not be available once the presentation starts.     (1E5B)
    • people behind corporate firewalls may have difficulty accessing this. If that is the case, please download the [ slides above] and running them locally. The speaker(s) will prompt you to advance the slides during the talk.     (1E5C)
  • Discussions and Q & A:     (1E6)
    • (Unless the conference host has already muted everyone) Please mute your phone, by pressing "*2" on your phone keypad, when a presentation is in progress. To un-mute, press "*3"     (1E6A)
    • You can type in your questions or comments through the browser based chat session by:     (1E6B)
      • instructions: once you got access to the page, click on the "settings" button, and identify yourself (by modifying the Name field). You can indicate that you want to ask a question verbally by clicking on the "hand" button, and wait for the moderator to call on you; or, type and send your question into the chat window at the bottom of the screen.     (1E6C1)
    • (when everyone is muted) If you want to speak or have questions or remarks to make, please "raise your hand (virtually)" by click on the "hand button" (lower right) on the chat session page. You may speak when acknowledged by the speaker or the session moderator (again, press "*3" on your phone to unmute). Test your voice and introduce yourself first before proceeding with your remarks, please. (Please remember to click on the "hand button" again (to lower your hand) and press "*2" on your phone to mute yourself after you are done speaking.)     (1E6D)
    • thanks to the soaphub.org folks, one can now use a jabber/xmpp client (e.g. gtalk) to join this chatroom. Just add the room as a buddy - (in our case here) ontolog_20091105@soaphub.org ... Handy for mobile devices!     (1E6E)
  • Please note that this session will be recorded, and the audio archive is expected to be made available as open content to our community membership and the public at-large under our prevailing open IPR policy.     (1E10)

Attendees     (1G)

Abstract     (1G5)

Increasingly, major national and international projects centered on ontology technology are being advanced by governments and by scientific and industrial organizations. This brings a growing need for ontology expertise and thus for new methods and institutions for the training of ontologists. The 2010 Ontology Summit will explore strategies to address this need in terms of curriculum, establishment of new career tracks, role of ontology support organizations and funding agencies, as well as training in the analysis and comparison of methodologies for designing, maintaining, implementing, testing and applying ontologies and associated tools and resources.     (1G5A)

This is a a (pre-launch) communitywide brainstorming and planning session for those who are passionate about the subject and would like to influence and help drive the outcome by helping refine the ideas, organization and process, around our challenge of Ontology Summit 2010: "Creating the Ontologists of the Future."     (1G5B)

See: our Ontology Summit 2010 Home page at: OntologySummit2010     (1G5C)

Agenda & Proceedings     (1H)

1. Introduction and ideas �� Steve Ray (co-chair)     (1H1)

2. Some more ideas �� Barry Smith (co-chair)     (1H2)

3. Open floor for even more ideas (All) -- please refer to [ process above]     (1H3)

Brainstorming of ideas that support the "Creating the Ontologists of the Future." theme     (1H4)
o Topics, Speakers, Invitees, Sponsors, Marketing, ... and more     (1H4A)

4. Summary and wrap-up (SteveRay)     (1H5)

Proceedings     (1I)

Please refer to the archives above     (1I1)

IM Chat Transcript captured during the session    (1I2)

(The chat transcript below has been lightly edited to help improve on clarity of the conversation.)     (1I2A)

VNC2: Welcome to the Ontology Summit 2010 (Pre-launch) Community Input and Planning Session - Thu 2009-11-05     (1I2B)

  • Agenda: This is a (pre-launch) communitywide brainstorming and planning session for OntologySummit2010.     (1I2E)

Please refer to details on the session page at:     (1I2F)

anonymous morphed into Bettina Schimanski     (1I2H)

anonymous morphed into Kurt Conrad     (1I2I)

anonymous morphed into Arturo Sanchez     (1I2J)

anonymous1 morphed into Antony Galton     (1I2K)

anonymous morphed into Jeff Abbott     (1I2L)

anonymous1 morphed into Barry Smith     (1I2M)

anonymous morphed into Fabian Neuhaus     (1I2N)

anonymous morphed into Rex Brooks     (1I2O)

Terry Longstreth: @barry: is this an extension of computer application     (1I2P)

development? What are the pre-reqs?     (1I2Q)

Peter P. Yim: @Barry - can one get properly "trained" on OWL 2.0, say, in     (1I2R)

Peter P. Yim: or "ontology mapping" or even "logic for ontologists" ... you     (1I2T)

would probably need a whole bunch of prerequisites to make the "one day"     (1I2U)

Todd Schneider: Barry, why is university accreditation needed? Are there     (1I2W)

other organizations that could do this?     (1I2X)

Frank Chum: @Todd, to guarantee a certain standard?     (1I2Y)

Todd Schneider: How about the Open Group? They provide administrative     (1I2Z)

services.     (1I2AA)

Steve Ray: I'm thinking that assembling a curriculum comes first, then     (1I2AB)

certification comes afterwards.     (1I2AC)

Todd Schneider: Barry, how were these costs arrived at?     (1I2AD)

Todd Schneider: Steve, I agree: The curriculum could be compressed to the     (1I2AE)

certification. I talked with Barry about this approach.     (1I2AF)

Steve Ray: @Todd: What do you mean, "compressed to the certification"?     (1I2AG)

Bettina Schimanski: How would this certification compare to other     (1I2AH)

certifications that already exist, like from Semsphere (http://www.semsphere.com/)?     (1I2AI)

Bettina Schimanski: I would like to clarify -     (1I2AJ)

I did not mention Semsphere for any marketing reasons as I am not     (1I2AK)

affiliated in any way with this company. I just mentioned it as an     (1I2AL)

example of another company that also has provided certification     (1I2AM)

possibilities.     (1I2AN)

Todd Schneider: Steve, I'm assuming a curriculum would be more     (1I2AO)

comprehensive and a certification would be a subset of it.     (1I2AP)

Todd Schneider: The notion to be addressed is interoperability in the     (1I2AQ)

broader sense.     (1I2AR)

Arturo Sanchez: Ontology creation and ontology use are tighly coupled ...     (1I2AS)

Peter P. Yim: do we *really* need "ontologists"?     (1I2AT)

... is it a profession, or a role tagged onto some exisiting professionals     (1I2AU)

... what is an Ontologists anyway? How many types of "ontologists" are there?     (1I2AV)

... maybe what we need are knowledge-engineers-plus,     (1I2AW)

or software-engineers-plus,     (1I2AX)

or systemn-architects-plus     (1I2AY)

(where, "plus" meaning those people with some additional training)     (1I2AZ)

Peter P. Yim: Marketing questions -     (1I2AAA)

Doug Holmes: So, in what significant way is an "ontologist" different     (1I2AAJ)

from a knowledge engineer? There are courses of instruction that exist     (1I2AAK)

in that area that might be leveraged...     (1I2AAL)

anonymous morphed into Pavithra Kenjige     (1I2AAM)

Peter P. Yim: Arturo Sanchez expressed interest to support in an     (1I2AAN)

environmental scan on the issue at hand     (1I2AAO)

Peter P. Yim: we can do an online survey (like we did in OntologySummit2007)     (1I2AAP)

... join Antony Galton et al. in their IAOA effort?     (1I2AAQ)

Todd Schneider: Ontology development paradigms are more aligned with     (1I2AAR)

systems engineering.     (1I2AAS)

Bettina Schimanski: I agree that designing and building ontologies does     (1I2AAT)

not solely rely on Computer Scientists. They are the ones to implement     (1I2AAU)

them. The content, however, must come from SMEs, and not just from     (1I2AAV)

biologists as was just mentioned.     (1I2AAW)

Peter P. Yim: I got a proposal (from someone who has been watching how we     (1I2AAX)

were doing the past summits) suggesting that we should have "proposals"     (1I2AAY)

prepared as part of the summit deliverables ... that would take us one     (1I2AAZ)

more step, beyond just releasing a communique.     (1I2AAAA)

Rex Brooks: What kind of proposal did this person mean, Peter?     (1I2AAAB)

Peter P. Yim: @Rex - that person was referring to grant proposals     (1I2AAAC)

Rex Brooks: Thanks for the clarification. Would this be proposals in     (1I2AAAD)

response to RFPs, or unsolicited in terms of target area?     (1I2AAAE)

Amanda Vizedom: @Peter: I like the proposal to prepare proposals very     (1I2AAAF)

much. I'd like to suggest that this, too, be modular in that we will     (1I2AAAG)

have an easier time working through proposals if those focusing on     (1I2AAAH)

overall architecture are separate from those focusing on content     (1I2AAAI)

segments, audience, requirements, etc.     (1I2AAAJ)

Todd Schneider: Ontology Works and Top Quadrant already provide training     (1I2AAAK)

services, among others. Could we get them to cooperate?     (1I2AAAL)

Steve Ray: @Todd: I was just talking to Ralph Hodgson of TopQuadrant     (1I2AAAM)

about this yesterday, and he did have some suggestions, so I'd say yes,     (1I2AAAN)

I believe they would participate.     (1I2AAAO)

Frank Chum: Semantic Arts also provide a 5-day ontology design training     (1I2AAAP)

Bettina Schimanski: @Todd: I know Top Quadrant has been very open with     (1I2AAAR)

training at conferences so I would think, if invited, they might be     (1I2AAAS)

interested. I am unfamiliar with Ontology Works.     (1I2AAAT)

Amanda Vizedom: If we want to produce a truly usable and meaningful     (1I2AAAU)

certification, we need to make sure we are addressing, in both content     (1I2AAAV)

and presentation, the broad range of very different practices that come     (1I2AAAW)

under the heading of Ontology.     (1I2AAAX)

Bettina Schimanski: @Frank: I am also aware of this Semantic Arts course     (1I2AAAY)

and have good things to say about it.     (1I2AAAZ)

Frank Chum: @Bettina: The course has been taught by DaveMcComb and his     (1I2AAAAA)

staff. I took it a few years ago. It was really good.     (1I2AAAAB)

Amanda Vizedom: ... I don't mean the bad stuff, obviously. I do mean that     (1I2AAAAC)

we need to consider that some ontologists are focused on creating a     (1I2AAAAD)

single-viewed best possible model of some part of the world, in     (1I2AAAAE)

abstraction from any particular user community or context. Some are     (1I2AAAAF)

explicitly focused on creating a model of the world as conceptualized by     (1I2AAAAG)

members of some community of practice. Some work within a domain and     (1I2AAAAH)

some work across domains.     (1I2AAAAI)

Frank Chum: We may need to certify the trainers first!     (1I2AAAAJ)

Amanda Vizedom: It is absolutely critical that new ontologists have some     (1I2AAAAL)

understanding of what practices they are part of, and be able to distill and     (1I2AAAAM)

understand methodological guidances in that context.     (1I2AAAAN)

Arturo Sanchez: So, that is another thread of discussion. What does ONTOLOG think     (1I2AAAAO)

Arturo Sanchez: a good certificate program should look like ...     (1I2AAAAP)

Leo Obrst: I was going to mention the IAOA too, as a potential certifier     (1I2AAAAR)

of the certification programs, to provide trustworthiness.     (1I2AAAAS)

Steve Ray: @Leo - that might be a better legal entity to do the     (1I2AAAAT)

certification of the certifiers than Ontolog.     (1I2AAAAU)

Arturo Sanchez: Legal issues aside, ONTOLOG--as part of this upcoming summit--     (1I2AAAAV)

Frank Chum: There is a class of people out there building database/xml     (1I2AAAAW)

schemas and convert them into ontologies and then call themselves     (1I2AAAAX)

ontologists     (1I2AAAAY)

Bettina Schimanski: @Frank: That is another possibility for a module     (1I2AAAAZ)

topic. I do not have a background with database work but often when I     (1I2AAAAAA)

work with others who have, they want to know what benefits ontologies     (1I2AAAAAB)

offer that databases cannot provide. It is not often a straightforward     (1I2AAAAAC)

Frank Chum: @Bettina: Yep. Explaining ontology concept to database people     (1I2AAAAAE)

can turn into lengthy discussions.     (1I2AAAAAF)

Bettina Schimanski: Great, I'm glad to hear Deb is already aware of the     (1I2AAAAAG)

summit and will be a part of it. I'm sure therefore that Jim knows about     (1I2AAAAAH)

it as well. I also agree that more than a Computer Science presence     (1I2AAAAAI)

needs to be there. Any suggestions?     (1I2AAAAAJ)

Doug Holmes: There is a joint initiative between MIT and the University     (1I2AAAAAK)

of Southampton in England called The Web Science Research Initiative     (1I2AAAAAL)

(WSRI) that probably ought to be part of this summit...     (1I2AAAAAM)

Arturo Sanchez: propose a formal curriculum that would define what an     (1I2AAAAAN)

ontologist is ...     (1I2AAAAAO)

Bettina Schimanski: @Doug: On that same note, Rensselaer Polytechnic     (1I2AAAAAP)

Institute has two key Semantic Technologists (JimHendler and DebMcGuinness)     (1I2AAAAAQ)

who have developed a curriculum that should perhaps also be     (1I2AAAAAR)

considered for inclusion in ths summit.     (1I2AAAAAS)

Doug Holmes: @Bettina I think it be very good to have Jim as part of this Summit     (1I2AAAAAT)

Peter P. Yim: @Bettina - I did speak to DebMcGuinness last week, and has     (1I2AAAAAU)

her support for this upcoming Summit     (1I2AAAAAV)

Arturo Sanchez: @Bettina: DeborahMcGuinness is an habitue of the summit     (1I2AAAAAW)

... it would be great to have James Hendler as well ...     (1I2AAAAAX)

Frank Chum: @Bettina: Yes, but both of them are computer scientist and     (1I2AAAAAY)

sometimes they are not the ideal people to do ontology modeling.     (1I2AAAAAZ)

Arturo Sanchez: @FrankChum: "sometimes they are not the ideal people to     (1I2AAAAAAA)

do ontology modeling." **this puzzles me ... can you elaborate?     (1I2AAAAAAB)

Amanda Vizedom: @Barry - Suggestion: replace current module 13 (UCore) with a     (1I2AAAAAAC)

module that surveys the landscape of existing, in-use ontologies: where     (1I2AAAAAAD)

they come from, what there characteristics (logically, in use, etc.)     (1I2AAAAAAE)

are, what they can and should be used for, how to find and assess more.     (1I2AAAAAAF)

Pavithra Kenjige: Steve : I beleive to build Ontology one needs to     (1I2AAAAAAG)

understand, logic of relationships of things, how they can be described     (1I2AAAAAAH)

( properties) in ones domain. I am not sure where exactly the phsycology     (1I2AAAAAAI)

fits in! However, people with phycology communicate with people well,     (1I2AAAAAAJ)

not necessarily things..     (1I2AAAAAAK)

Doug Holmes: Thanks Ken; I have a very hard time distinguishing what we     (1I2AAAAAAL)

seem to be talking about from knowledge engineering...     (1I2AAAAAAM)

Bettina Schimanski: When I (a Computer Scientist) have designed     (1I2AAAAAAN)

ontologies, I have often partnered with a Technical Librarian. That is     (1I2AAAAAAO)

what made it successful in my opinion.     (1I2AAAAAAP)

Leo Obrst: I periodically teach a series of 3 courses through our MITRE     (1I2AAAAAAQ)

Institute, each 8 hrs long: 1) Introduction to semantics, ontologies,     (1I2AAAAAAR)

knowledge representation, and Semantic Web technologies; 2) a more     (1I2AAAAAAS)

foundational course, Introduction to Logic and Logic Programming (this     (1I2AAAAAAT)

really should be taught first, in my opinion); and 3) an advanced course     (1I2AAAAAAU)

on Ontology Engineering and Applications of Ontologies. These are     (1I2AAAAAAV)

currently scheduled independently, but I am considering teaching them in     (1I2AAAAAAW)

sequence in one week. I've found these are too short at 8 hrs each, and     (1I2AAAAAAX)

yet that is all people can allocate time for, at least here, i.e.,     (1I2AAAAAAY)

maximally 24 hrs over 3 days.     (1I2AAAAAAZ)

Amanda Vizedom: Indeed, RPI is another frequent producer of nascent     (1I2AAAAAAAA)

ontologists, as is UMD. RPI seems to be coming out of CS. There are many     (1I2AAAAAAAB)

strong ontologists working today who came originally from Philosophy,     (1I2AAAAAAAC)

Linguistics, Information Sciences, and so forth. To be usable by folks     (1I2AAAAAAAD)

who want to hire ontologists, the certificate may incorporate elements     (1I2AAAAAAAE)

that originated in all of these and more, but the focus must be not on     (1I2AAAAAAAF)

theoretical background for its own sake, but on the actual knowledge and     (1I2AAAAAAAG)

skill needed to do good work as a working ontologist.     (1I2AAAAAAAH)

Peter P. Yim: @Amanda - I talked to Tim Finin (UMD) at ISWC last week, and he     (1I2AAAAAAAI)

is very supportive too!     (1I2AAAAAAAJ)

Doug Holmes: I personally think that even a small step away from computer     (1I2AAAAAAAK)

science leads immediately and inevitably to philosophy and there is no     (1I2AAAAAAAL)

bottom to that swamp...     (1I2AAAAAAAM)

Frank Chum: @Auturo: As Bettina mentioned, with Librarian, also social     (1I2AAAAAAAN)

scientist, domain knowledge engineers.     (1I2AAAAAAAO)

Bettina Schimanski: Maybe it helps too that my background is in     (1I2AAAAAAAP)

Artificial Intelligence / Cognitive Science.     (1I2AAAAAAAQ)

Bettina Schimanski: I think those fields might need to be included as     (1I2AAAAAAAR)

Arturo Sanchez: @FrankChum: strongly agree ... the ontology is the     (1I2AAAAAAAU)

collaborative product of modelers and--so-called--domain experts ...     (1I2AAAAAAAV)

Amanda Vizedom: @Doug: That's only true of bad philosophy. (half-joking,     (1I2AAAAAAAW)

bc I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but serious in saying that while     (1I2AAAAAAAX)

some critical elements come from philosophy, including conceptual     (1I2AAAAAAAY)

analysis, applied ontology (as opposed to the philosophical subfield of     (1I2AAAAAAAZ)

ontology) is distinct from that ancestral home in part because it does     (1I2AAAAAAAAA)

Doug Holmes: @Amanda no slight intended to philosophers or Philosophy; it     (1I2AAAAAAAAC)

just takes a very long time to resolve anything in that realm     (1I2AAAAAAAAD)

Bettina Schimanski: @All: I enjoyed this discussion and look forward to     (1I2AAAAAAAAE)

further ones. Unfortunately I need to leave now for another meeting.     (1I2AAAAAAAAF)

Have a good day!     (1I2AAAAAAAAG)

Steve Ray: @Bettina - thanks for your participation.     (1I2AAAAAAAAH)

Mike Bennett: There are also a bunch of people at Brunel who are working     (1I2AAAAAAAAI)

in the ontology area. Might be worth talking to them?     (1I2AAAAAAAAJ)

Peter P. Yim: @MikeBennett and all - can you, or anyone here, identify who     (1I2AAAAAAAAK)

these people are ... and/or talk to them on behalf of this community     (1I2AAAAAAAAL)

Mike Bennett: @Peter: will do. The person to talk to at Brunel is Sergio     (1I2AAAAAAAAM)

de Cesare, I'll drop him a mail and copy you.     (1I2AAAAAAAAN)

Peter P. Yim: @MikeBennett - great! thanks     (1I2AAAAAAAAO)

Jeff Abbott: Peter and group, I just wanted to put down my input in     (1I2AAAAAAAAP)

text, in case I don't get may audio working. We come from a Human     (1I2AAAAAAAAQ)

Systems Integration (HSI)perspective. We have the first HSI     (1I2AAAAAAAAR)

certification program in the USA online at UCSD in San Diego, that is     (1I2AAAAAAAAS)

supported by UCSD and SPAWAR. We always do an Analysis of Alternative     (1I2AAAAAAAAT)

(AOA), see what's out there before we proceed as part of our process. We     (1I2AAAAAAAAU)

are currently developing a HSI for the System Engineer course. Peter, I     (1I2AAAAAAAAV)

just got back from the W3C and attended the HCLS Healthcare group (where     (1I2AAAAAAAAW)

I also talked with Mark Musen) and the Healthcare group certainly uses     (1I2AAAAAAAAX)

ontologies and deals with the integration of ontologies, which could be     (1I2AAAAAAAAY)

a course by itself.     (1I2AAAAAAAAZ)

Jeff Abbott: Yes, System Engineering. We are doing the HSI to SE     (1I2AAAAAAAAAA)

(because it's in one of our domains) and would like to do Ontology to     (1I2AAAAAAAAAB)

Pavithra Kenjige: Jeff, I agree with that. I learnt it when I was     (1I2AAAAAAAAAD)

studying software systems engineering..     (1I2AAAAAAAAAE)

Bettina Schimanski: @Steve and Barry - thank you for your presentations     (1I2AAAAAAAAAF)

Jeff Abbott: Pavithra and group, you have to develop curriculum to the     (1I2AAAAAAAAAJ)

audience and it's logic and level of ability and need.     (1I2AAAAAAAAAK)

Leo Obrst: @Todd: I taught an elective course on my topic 1 to UVA's     (1I2AAAAAAAAAL)

Accelerated Masters program in Systems Engineering.     (1I2AAAAAAAAAM)

Peter P. Yim: @Antony and All - please document the salient points you just     (1I2AAAAAAAAAN)

talked about on this chat board, if you please (that will help     (1I2AAAAAAAAAO)

tremendously when I start boiling the input down to a work plan, and to     (1I2AAAAAAAAAP)

manage follow-up activities)     (1I2AAAAAAAAAQ)

Antony Galton: Just to put on written record what I was saying. The IAOA     (1I2AAAAAAAAAR)

include educational matters as an important part of its activities. One     (1I2AAAAAAAAAS)

thing we want to do is to compile a database of what is already out     (1I2AAAAAAAAAT)

there, i.e., existing courses or modules with ontological content, much     (1I2AAAAAAAAAU)

along the lines of what Arturo suggested, and I have already started     (1I2AAAAAAAAAV)

work on this - but so far I mainly only have material from the UK.     (1I2AAAAAAAAAW)

Another idea is to create a library of resources that teachers can draw     (1I2AAAAAAAAAX)

on when designing courses, e.g., research papers, tutorial material,     (1I2AAAAAAAAAY)

example ontologies in various formats, editing tools, etc. A third idea     (1I2AAAAAAAAAZ)

is to put together a set of recommendations for a set of "standard"     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAA)

curricula. This could relate to the idea that was mentioned about IAOA     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAB)

being a possible certification or accreditation body for ontological     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAC)

courses. Finally, I drew attention to the workshop we are planning to     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAD)

hold at FOIS 2010 on ontology education - we will need to look at how we     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAE)

can coordinate this with the activities of this summit. I'll be     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAF)

distributing a call for contributions for this workshop soon.     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAG)

Frank Chum: @Doug: Barry Smith was (or still is) a philosopher'     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAH)

Jeff Abbott: You need a ontology basis to go between domains and get a     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAI)

System of Systems view.     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAJ)

Mike Bennett: @Doug: I disagree profoundly. Ontology should be     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAK)

multi-disciplinary (think santa Fe type of approach). It has     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAL)

philosopical underpinnings if it's done right. IT/comp sci does not, if     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAM)

it's done wrong     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAN)

Arturo Sanchez: @AntonyGalton: great ideas! I'll look into the FOIS     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAO)

workshop you mentioned ...     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAP)

Amanda Vizedom: @Arturo, @Frank: Yes, this is a critical point of     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAQ)

difference between contemporary applied ontologists due and both some     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAR)

theoretical ontology (in philosophy) and some historical projects: By     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAS)

far the majority of projects are collaborative in many ways, including     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAT)

between ontological specialists and subject matter experts. Many people     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAU)

who have theoretical training turn out to be unable to do applied     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAV)

ontology in such contexts. Also, a dismaying number of both     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAW)

supposedly-trained ontologists and customers are unaware of the     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAX)

substantial research that has taken place in the last 20 years --     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAY)

especially the last 10 -- around these collaborations and the     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAZ)

consequences of moving the input/formalization closer to, or further     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAA)

away from, the SMEs.     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAB)

ontology on the domain of "education and training of ontologists"     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAD)

Todd Schneider: So Barry, are you suggesting a department of ontology     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAE)

would focus on research in the domain of ontology?     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAF)

Doug Holmes: @Mike I think that a multi-disciplinary perspective is good     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAG)

- probably essential, but I also think there is an essential engineering     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAH)

perspective that has to be grounded in a particular product. That is, as     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAI)

far as I can see, a computer science product...     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAJ)

Mike Bennett: @Doug, it is certainly engineering and should be grounded     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAK)

in well established engineering methodology. This is what I don't tend     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAL)

to see when IT folks who call themselves engineers, get hold of a new     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAM)

toy or a new language to learn. Results can be variable!     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAN)

Amanda Vizedom: @Doug: None taken! Just piping up because sometimes     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAO)

people focus on the more abstracted or least empirically connected     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAP)

schools, within certain subareas of philosophy, thinking that's all     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAQ)

there is. There are, however, a substantial number of us out here with     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAR)

Ph.D.s in philosophy *and* many years of experience as working, applied     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAS)

ontologists in non-academic environments. We do, however, tend to come     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAT)

from more pragmatic schools of thought, and often from different     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAU)

sub-areas within philosophy.     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAV)

Doug Holmes: @Mike can't argue with that     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAW)

Mike Bennett: @Doug and Amanda, I think we have a core module here     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAX)

Frank Chum: @Amanda: Philosophers can be working ontologists too.     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAY)

Doug Holmes: @Frank as long as its ontology with a "small o"     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAZ)

Amanda Vizedom: @Doug, @ Mike, and others: I agree that the engineering     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAA)

aspect is critical. In fact, I might argue that the certificate client     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAB)

organizations want is very importantly an *applied* ontology     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAC)

certificate. I have seen too many people hire folks with theoretical     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAD)

training only, and no engineering understanding or intuitions. This     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAE)

causes project failure *and* gives the field a bad reputation.     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAF)

Mike Bennett: @Amanda agree wholeheartdly. Maybe we should be talking to     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAG)

engineering insstitutions     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAH)

Arturo Sanchez: @MichaelGruninger: good summary ... which sums up the     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAJ)

threads that can be defined for the summit ...     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAK)

Arturo Sanchez: "we don't need another hero" "Tina Turner"     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAM)

Rex Brooks: I didn't want to inject a tangent, but I wish I had some     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAN)

ontology students to help with doing ontologies for use in IT standards.     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAO)

Jeff Abbott: Peter, I will send you my information and will be in     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAP)

Arturo Sanchez: Thanks y'all Nice weather here in NE Florida     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAS)

Peter P. Yim: Great session ... I'll try to get the chat-transcript and     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAT)

audio recording posted (onto the session page) within the next working     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAU)

day ... please check back!     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAV)

Terry Longstreth: @Peter: Could you put together a list of things people     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAW)

Peter P. Yim: @Terry ... I guess that would be what the "organizing     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAY)

committee" will need to get to next - before the Ontology Summit 2010     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAZ)

Launch Event on 10-Dec-2009     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAA)

Leo Obrst: I agree with Fabian, that we need to distinguish between     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAB)

university (Masters level) curricula, and a professional curricula. I     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAC)

personally think that they are the same. I would advocate a commmon     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAD)

curriculum, which could be taught in 3 ways: 1)a university academic MS     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAE)

degree in ontology engineering, which could be prelude to a PhD program;     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAF)

2) a university terminal professional MS degree in ontology engineering;     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAG)

3) a non-university professional accreditation course. In all cases,     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAH)

there should be recognition via a certification: the first 2 via a     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAI)

university degree, the 3rd via the course provider backed by     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAJ)

accreditation itself via a professional organization such as the     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAK)

International Association for Ontology and its Applications.     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAL)

Peter P. Yim: session adjourned 12:03pm PST     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAM)

Peter P. Yim: Bye everyone ... closing chat session now! =ppy     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAN)

- end of in-session chat-transcript -     (1I2AAAAAAAAAAAAAO)

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